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Six Weeks of Solar Hot Water: Let's Work Together for Change!

By Andrew Holden
May 4, 2011   |   40 Comments

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40 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 40
May 4, 2011
To get you started:

1.What changes/plans/conversations are need to make Solar Hot Water grow?

Changes: change consumer's ideas that solar only means PV
plans : More installations, donated systems, personal
systems, (eg walk the walk just don't talk the talk)
for consumers to see in action.
Converstations: exisiting SHW users testimonies


2.What's the best example(s) of solar/thermal marketing you've ever seen?
A good working example or a happy customer.

3.Do we need a campaign to distinguish Solar Thermal from PV?

Not a campain, just simple wording, eg. 'Solar for free domestic hot water and home heating.'

4.Is it time for SHW to agressively market/compete against residential and commercial oil prices?

Don't market against something , market for something and don't compete just do.
As far as cost, it's is up to the installers and panel manufacturers to keep their prices down. Plumbing supplies costs are pretty much fixed, so it comes down to experience with installation to make installations faster and cheaper. Selling so called 'plug and play systems' only jack up cost for items that would cost considerably less if purchased separately, and repairs or replacement down the road is more difficult and more expensive when specialty items are involved.

Now my question, How come only six weeks?
Comment
2 of 40
May 4, 2011
Thanks for your comments Thomas - quite appreciated.

In terms of 'seeing SHW system in action' - (outside of the White House) are there any notable examples you'd recommend checking out and/or broadcasting to others?

In terms of marketing against oil; I should be more clear - I"m thinking that solar hot water may benefit from a 'picking a fight' with oil heating, as mentioned here:

http://37signals.com/svn/archives2/conflict_is_good_for_business.php

What do you think?

Thanks,
Andrew H.
Comment
3 of 40
May 4, 2011
Now my question, How come only six weeks?

- I can only write so much :)

My hope is to use these 6 weeks to create a baseline guide for growing Solar Thermal, and then modify that PDF guide over time, continuing the conversation about RE and SHW here at REW and abroad...
Comment
4 of 40
May 4, 2011
Notable examples: drive around and keep your eyes open, they're out there. There are also many solar home tours.
The ocean and every river, lake and pond are solar heated.

Why do you want to pick a fight? It's a fight you can't win. Just walk away! (and laugh) Then put the time, effort and money into installing systems.
Comment
5 of 40
May 4, 2011
Clee - thanks for your comments, quite helpful.

I think the SolarCity / community / crowd-sourced example(s) are especially interesting. I've brought up that model up with clients before, (including Alpha Thermal Systems) but as you know, some of the variables in SHW installations (especially retrofitting) can be problematic for predicting benefits/payback accurately.

That said, maybe its time to re-examine the issue. Perhaps we need a small town in (New England? The Southwest?) to be a widely-known American exemplar of municipal, residential and commercial deployment in Renewable Energy...

Maine?
http://www.environmentmaine.org/newsroom/energy/energy-program-news/as-oil-prices-soar-report-finds-solar-hot-water-would-save-mainers--oil

..and thanks for the video - the presenter put the relative PV/SHW merits out well.

I also notice that Wake Forest recently announced a SolarThermal/PV 'cell' - which might be of interest to readers here: http://www.gizmag.com/solar-thermal-cell/18346/

Clee, the sticker-marketing example is a really interesting example to me because we expect to see a critical growth in the 'physical/mobile web' over the next few years - far beyond even residential-level online monitoring.

I'm going to be giving the 'informational' questions around SHW some thought - relating to visibility (installed and on the street as Thomas mentions), accessibility, monitoring and marketing-frequency... perhaps it's time to bring these questions/benefits to the mobile/web as well..
Comment
6 of 40
May 4, 2011
re: Can I have a monitor that shows me how hot the solar heated water is, etc.

Absolutely. One of the advantages I see for 'plug & play' systems is that monitoring tends to be more sophisticated (and often includes pre-programmed efficiency capabilities/functions). Pretty much everything my clients at ATS sell is online-capable; beyond that there are a *lot* of online options out there in my experience. Caveat: some are great, many are terrible.

Generally speaking, areas with a longer history and greater deployment of SHW (Germany, etc.) seem to have better monitoring options; mostly only available for iOS (Apple) at this point, but I think that will change as web-based-apps grow significantly into the next few years.
Comment
7 of 40
May 4, 2011
We're all still looking for that magic bullet, I wrote a fun post back in 2008 about solar hot water.

I'm still waiting for the customers to beat my door down. What a great idea on your six weeks! I am excited to see how it goes!

(Sorry about the post ~ I realized it went to members only after I posted it.)
Comment
8 of 40
May 5, 2011
Monitoring SHW is as easy as installing a temperature gauge. There are also differential controllers that have several thermocouple inputs to monitor different parts of the system. Then if you know incoming temp and outgoing temp, and the volume of water in the tank, then you can figure out how many BTU's you have gained.
The other way to monitor your gain is to read your gas or electric meter or your oil bill over a period of time. The reduction in units is pretty much equal to the solar gain. So no real need for fancy gadgets that increase SHW installation costs. Besides, you can't control the sun, so no type of sophisticated monitoring system can make a difference on the amount of hot water you can make or how hot the water will get. The only way to get more gain is to add more panels for more square footage of exposure.
Just take and appreciate what you can get and use it wisely. I don't think you need a monitor to know the sun is out and to do laundry that day.....
Comment
9 of 40
May 5, 2011
@ SunnyMary,

Sounds interesting - Perhaps you could post that article here at REW?

@ Thomas - What do you think about the potentials for efficient solar-hot-water storage? I don't see much here, but there seem to be some sophisticated commercial/residential technologies elsewhere.

Thanks,
Andrew H.
Comment
10 of 40
May 5, 2011
The main thing in water storage is just like any other heat storage problem. It all comes down to the heat loss through exposed surfaces. So the best solution is insulation.
Comment
11 of 40
May 5, 2011
Fossil fuel providers are adept at protecting their market. Just as ther proved adept at taking market share from earlier solar providers.

In the seesaw, solar providers are getting better. For example, Dave Smith of Sunworks Solar in Jax, FL is making the business case for solar thermal and getting sales. Futura Solar has a multiple solar benefit roofing system for low profile commercial buildings and has several competitors (none of whom seem to step on the US patent). Other business applications (PV on mobile road signs) have captured their market segment on a business case alone.

We all understand the residential focus, but the business segment is where we will see the sort of numbers that mainstream solar.
Comment
12 of 40
May 5, 2011
Thanks Patrick,

re: the business segment is where we will see the sort of numbers that mainstream solar.

I would agree. Are there any examples of SHW-->to-->Commercial marketing that you regard as especially effective at increasing the visibility/viability of solar hot water to that sector?

Thanks,
Andrew H.
Comment
13 of 40
May 5, 2011
Patrick, yes we need both residential and commercial installations to promote RE. But last time I checked, there are a lot more residential buildings in any given town or city than there are commercial buildings. So I am sure if you add up all the HW needed in a block or two, that would be a much larger demand than one commercial application.
Comment
14 of 40
May 5, 2011
Andrew, Thomas,

Numbers are usually a case of which ones? Volume? Also, a number of businesses are in residential type buildings.

In addition to Dave Smith at Sunworks, I have had the opportunity to speak with Martin Handelsman of PVT Solar, which combines SWH and PV into PV/Thermal (a new combined product). Just as we moved to 'building integration' we will see more and more multiple benefit systems.
Comment
15 of 40
May 5, 2011
I think we should also consider changing the terminology. Let's face it, most people are stupid. REALLY stupid. When you mention "solar thermal", they tilt their head like a dog at a whistle and ask if you mean "thermal" as in underwear.

Following the KISS standard, I suggest we rename Solar Thermal to Solar Water. It's a better demarcation of what the system does and avoids any upfront confusion when discussing the process.

Unless you like those tilted heads...
Comment
16 of 40
May 5, 2011
Here in New England, the term "solar heating" attracts a lot of attention. We spend a lot of time discussing the differences between solar domestic water heating and solar space heating. Installers, marketeers and solar education folk need to point out to consumers how different solar technologies address different issues - i.e. are you trying to reduce your electric bill? or your fuel heating bill?

A challenging aspect in Massachusetts is quantifying the fuel savings for solar domestic hot water. Many homes here use oil boilers with tankless water heaters, and therefore it is less clear how much fuel goes only to heating water. It would be helpful to understand how to better quantify savings so that we could show a more accurate representation of return on investment, similar to what we can do well with PV.
Comment
17 of 40
May 5, 2011
Kferguson, you are right when it comes to using a tankless in conjunction with solar. But there are ways to reduce boiler run time in the spring, summer and fall using installation methods that keep the boiler off when not needed and turn it on only when needed. Creative, experienced installers should be able to figure out how to do this. (I'm not giving away my secrets) Then, it is possible to lower oil consumption and figure out savings during these times.
Comment
18 of 40
May 5, 2011
Thanks Thomas. My comment was meant to address the original blog question:
1. What changes/plans/conversations are need to make Solar Hot Water grow?

I think more verifiable, not just theoretical, savings figures can help Solar Hot Water grow as an alternative to fossil fuel.
Comment
19 of 40
May 5, 2011
Yes it is understandable that a consumer would want verifiable savings, but PV is the same way. Only difference is, the PV has a meter, so people feel more comfortable with being able to see their savings spinning in black and white. All systems are designed to make a certain amount of energy whether be it PV or HW. This amount is also theoretical. Both systems depend on the amount of radiation they recieve and results can change drastically for both. (With SHW, radiation is still available at night and as long as night time temperature is hotter than the incoming cold water you make hot water at night...try that PV)
But most people wouldn't know a BTU if they saw one. Especially if it is coming out of thin air. A spinning meter makes for easy recognition.
So as I mentioned somewhat earlier, it comes down to knowing your usage from previous bills and comparing to new bills after the system is installed and knowing how to properly use your system.
Comment
20 of 40
May 6, 2011
In Southern California most homes use natural gas to heat their water, therefore the economics just don't pencil out for most folks, even when considering incentives and tax credits. For example, if a system (savings of 135 therms/year)runs $6k and the homeowner receives an incentive of $1.5 k and a tax credit of $1.5 k, a balance of $3k will still remain for a simple payback calculation. In San Diego the avg. therm price is $1.15/therm, therefore if you multiply this rate against 135 therms per year you are saving $155 per year on your gas bill by having a SHW system. $3000/$155= a 19 year simple payback. That won't work for folks who are concerned with the economics. In places such as Florida or Hawaii which are all electric SHW makes much more financial sense.
No image available
Comment
21 of 40
Anonymous
May 6, 2011
Steve - I am in FL and have natural gas. My calculations also show about 20 year payback.

Clee - don't be confused. If you see collectors on FL roofs, I betcha they have a pool. I have family members with pools that heat the pool with solar; but shower with electric or gas water heaters.

Current legislators won't help much. As I recently heard in a seminar: "you might live in the sunshine state; but when it comes to renewables, you live in the dark ages".
Comment
22 of 40
May 6, 2011
Andrew,
Great article ... lots of comments ... maybe this is the crack in the wall that will finally get Solar Thermal through ... I'm retired and just trying to get the word out, no axe to grind ... built a cottage see " greenandsolarcottage.org " ... it has solar assisted radiant heat and dhw with electric demand backup and it has been online for 2 years ... present total average monthly utility bill is $85 and this can be a net zero home ... only have a 1800 watt PV system installed (can expand) ... guess what the system cost less then a standard heating and domestic hot water system .... it works now, not in the future, and it is simple ... SDHW and Heating is the best bang for the buck ... use Solar and only boost it as you need to ... good luck getting the word out
Comment
23 of 40
May 6, 2011
Thanks everyone - it's been an amazing week of feedback, critical insights and information on Solar Hot Water for me here. Next week, I'll be providing some 'exemplary' SHW examples at different levels; and asking more questions to build this resource for growing SHW well.

(..and my thanks again to Alpha Thermal Systems; they've been wonderfully generous to fund this six weeks of SHW blog posts; as well as the eventual production of some new tools/resources to help us all grow Solar Hot Water in a good way.)

Andrew H.
Comment
24 of 40
May 6, 2011
Here in British Columbia, we - the BC Sustainable Energy Association - have been running a solar hot water program called SolarBC for the past 3 years.See http://www.solarbc.ca

We've got a ton of experience of what works and what doesn't work, and we have facilitated a host of installations -32 solar communities, 546 residential installations, 39 local government, 45 schools, and 15 social housing.
Comment
25 of 40
May 8, 2011
Solar Hot Water/Thermal needs not only a coolness factor, but it's not as 'sexy' as PV. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with this, but we are immersed in the age of consumerism, after all. Make it cool, make it sexy, then I bet the general audience will come...
No image available
Comment
26 of 40
Anonymous
May 8, 2011
"Make it cool, make it sexy..."

Make it freaking code everywhere in the country; that will take care of the issue.
Comment
27 of 40
May 8, 2011
@Anonymous, perhaps making it code would take care of the issue, eventually--but I think some marketing maven focusing on a coolness or sexy factor might not take as long to be enbraced...
Comment
28 of 40
May 8, 2011
I'd be remiss if I didn't post this link in response:
http://vimeo.com/15585497

..perhaps a bit too literal, but SHW can probably use all the help it can get. :)
Comment
29 of 40
May 8, 2011
I will say that a Code Requirement (SDHW to get a permit to build any Res. or Biz. ) would go a long way. I have compared Nat. Gas and Electricity and Nat Gas is as everyone knows the cash prize. Making it 'Cool' to be Solar is a great way too, lets mix them....Developers get Fee reductions for 'Green' housing tracts...all it takes is a Code! to make it cool! This is a free market approach with incentive to builders and 'Cool' to buyers. someone could say 'We chose to buy into the Eco tract' 'We live in Green Acres' you build the Solar and other into the whole product give the people the option with out getting into this ROI crap. People do this all the time with buying the sport package on a car, financed into the Base Car Price! There is no ROI on a Sport Package, and they sell like hot cakes...just look at car logos as you drive on the road. Turbo S etc. Image works. Both comments are right above make it Cool and Code....
Greg Chick
Comment
30 of 40
May 8, 2011
@cartanova, ja, we have to start somewhere, but sorry, that was a lame attempt at sexy and cool. Maybe solar hot water/thermal should be fun, too, like a phat dippin' party.

@Greg Chick, I think you're on to something. Cool & Code. C^2. Short, simple, easy to understand.
Comment
31 of 40
May 9, 2011
@kimgerly

re: that was a lame attempt at sexy and cool.

Hey, I agree. It's certainly not my video - just something I ran across that seemed relevant to the discussion in the post above; for better or much more likely, for worse.

Anyway, stay tuned for part II of 'Six Weeks of Solar Hot Water' soon... and thanks for all the feedback, resources and ideas.
No image available
Comment
32 of 40
Anonymous
May 9, 2011
@ Clee - good idea. "A water heating solar device/system that will reduce the consumption of elect/nat. gas/oil by at least 50% compared to the same square footage home without such water heating solar device/system." Or something like that.

And while we are at it. Double pane windows EVERYWHERE, including in the South!!!!
Comment
33 of 40
May 9, 2011
CartaNova:
Great little video!!!

Two bits of info that would help the public: A. You will never be without hot water due to cloudy days.
B. A retrofit is quite simple.( your entire house will not be torn apart, or disturbed) Install usually done in one day.

Also: People buy things for how it will feel owning them." It feels GOOD knowing your water was heated free."
Who doesn't like to feel good?
Comment
34 of 40
May 11, 2011
In order to grow the swh industry alot still has to take place. Here in Arizona for example too many sales companies are selling swh systems to homeowners and then subcontracting the work out without the owners knowledge. These sales companies have no real contracting experience and are creating alot of problems. Also, the utility companies need to be on board and I don't just mean advertising. SRP and APS are the two big utility companies in AZ and while they are promoting to the public about the potential rebates, they have now become the " second authority having jurisdiction". This means that even if a contractor passes his city inspection, the utility company gets to inspect that work as well and if they find anything they don't like, the homeowner doesn't get a check. This is causing too much beauracratic red teape, confusion, and frustration with homeowners and contractors. The utility companies here are purposefully failing well installed swh systems so that they can force local contractors to pay up to $5,000 dollars for their "official training" and then they won't fore inspections of the contractor's work once that training is completed. Beauracratic rackets like this have to stop.
As far as differentiating from PV, that is not only a necessity, but it also needs to be explained that swh systems have better ROI's and if the owner is going to use less electricity by having an SWH system, they have the potential to have a smaller, cheaper PV system.
I don't think oil is yet expensive enough to go up against by strictly pricing. I would go after the idea that oil shortages have happened before, will inevitably happen again, and that the best way to protect yourself from future oil and energy problems is by owning alternative energy tech such as SWH.
Comment
35 of 40
May 12, 2011
Promote SHW as an investment. Against propane SHW has an ROI typically better than 10%. PV is usually around 5%, but unfortunately SHW against natural gas is at best no better than PV and usually less. Then ask your potential client where can they invest the same money for that ROI? Also the savings isn't subject to a capital gains tax of 15%, so with the 10% mentioned above it effectively increases the ROI to 11.5%.
With regard to your industry in-fighting comment I agree. The flat platers tend to come up with every reason imaginable to disparage evacuated tubes in a bidding situation. Evacuated tubes work well in combi systems of dhw/radiant because of the dominant winter application benefiting from low heat losses, but if I offer an evacuated tube bid to a customer and he ask the flat plate bidder about them he usually gets so much negativity that it is then an uphill battle to counteract it. There are pros and cons to both. Each has their own best application.
One solar magazine recently said that the five largest evacuated tube manufacturers in China produced more collector square footage than all the world of flat plate collectors. What does that say?
Comment
36 of 40
May 12, 2011
Curtis-Jackson:

Excellent comment:
Most people do not realize that a home utility bill is paid with after-tax dollars;therefore, if they saved $ 1,000 on electricity,approximately $1,400 would have to be earned to pay that $ 1,000.

The taxes saved could be set aside for a nice nest egg.
Comment
37 of 40
May 12, 2011
Now that is Sexy, I think one must think of the whole aspect of "Gain" when calculating. Including Taxes and how the purchase feels. I like to feel good about my decisions.
Comment
38 of 40
August 11, 2011
I think that our blog "The Story of Solar Thermal in a Neighborhood Near You" (http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/blog/post/2011/08/the-story-of-solar-in-a-neighborhood-near-you)coincides interestingly with this discussion and your series of blog posts. Please, don't disregard this as self-promotion, because it's incredibly relevant.

To date we have two chapters - if you will - of this story. But there are many, many more to come. This is because we are participating in a unique, large-scale SDHW program across the state of MA (it is being funded by the MA Clean Energy Center -- if interested, refer to their website to learn more about the intricacies of the projects & funding). The systems are being given only to low income housing and recreational facilities.

For this program we (Paradigm Partners) are providing construction management from beginning to end for every project. We are still at the pre-con stages for many of these projects, having successfully completed 1 (of 18-25 depending on how many the money can support), but the lessons learned about SHW to-date are abundant and significant.

We strongly feel that this opportunity in which we are proud to be partaking is a win-win-win scenario:
1. many of the state's low-income residents will benefit
2. the state's reliance on fossil fuels will be reduced, and finally (and most important to this discussion)
3. by doing so many projects in such a short amount of time (11 months is the time frame to spend the money projects) we are able to standardize the PROCESS for completing solar thermal installations and continuously find ways to drive down the costs (because by doing so we can actually complete more projects, helping more people) -- namely by creating transparency and clear communication practices throughout that process -- because by doing so we can complete. Please refer to our blog or contact us directly if you're interested in hearing more.
Comment
39 of 40
August 11, 2011
We need a TV sit Com about a Renewable Energy Contractor and this situation. Main Characters could be a Republican, a Green Freak a CPA and a Marketing man. al there to play out all the valuable points fairly in a comical point of view.
Greg
Comment
40 of 40
August 11, 2011
I don't mean to sound like a 'know it all' but having installed over 300 SWH's I do know what is needed:

First: We need a third party (utility company) informing folks that a solar water heater is the first and most cost efficient step to take in seeking independence. People pay closer attention to details when not listening to a 'salesman.'

Second: We need 10 to 20 year financing so instead of telling the consumer, 'This system will cost you 9 or 10 thousand dollars, we can say,' This will cost you $ 80 per month but you should save at least $ 60. The more rates increase, the more you save.'
This technique brought in 85 contracts in one month. Personally, I feel utility companies fear the damage solar water heaters can do to their much needed revenue---and control.

Jim Lindsey solarplexusco.com
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