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What's Keeping Solar Hot Water From Going Main Stream? Some Thoughts and Solutions from Solar Fred

By Tor 'Solar Fred' Valenza
April 27, 2011   |   52 Comments

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The information and views expressed in this blog post are solely those of the author and not necessarily those of RenewableEnergyWorld.com or the companies that advertise on this Web site and other publications. This blog was posted directly by the author and was not reviewed for accuracy, spelling or grammar.

52 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 52
April 27, 2011
Great subject Tor! I have been to a few water amusement parks for business, which would be more on the high end water heating consumers. From my experience, the need for energy and gas reductions is astounding to say the least. Most of our clients do not understand the benefits of Solar Thermal Technology and also they are aware of what little help they can get from incentives and rebates compared to Solar PV power. What I don't get is why do they continue to spend several tens of thousands of their dollars on gas and utility costs. The only conclusion to the "why" in my opinion, is the immediate gratification of what they get back. Isn't the key for a sustainable business is the long term and creating an "Energy Security"? My solution is when funding is available, purchase what you can afford then add-on in the future. And for the amusement parks, go both Solar Thermal & Power. Thank you Mr. Valenza for creating another blog that is highly relative to our business!
Comment
2 of 52
April 28, 2011
For residential solar hot water, there is the competition by the new Hybrid Hot Water heaters. I have been researching and training in solar technology (thermal and PV) for several years and had been excited to install a solar hot water system when I could afford one which I figured would be around $4000 or so. Then last summer I found and researched hybrid hot water heaters (GE and Rheem) which use an attached air source heat pump to heat the water. They have comparable energy savings as solar over electric water heaters and a much smaller price tag - $1500 with low maintenance basically cleaning an air filter. With a state rebate and the IRS tax credit it ended up costing about $400!

First month of use and my electric bill dropped by roughly 1/3. Now I have a hard time justifying solar hot water systems with their higher costs and maintenance. Unless radiant floor heating is part of the installation.

But I do promote solar hot air! After building and installing 3 solar hot air panels, I have saved over 400 gallons of fuel oil each of for the past 4 years! Those savings had their costs paid off during their 3rd year of operation, and with current oil prices just imagine how much I saved this year! Not to mention low maintenance...

So residential solar hot water systems are hard pressed to compete with the new hybrid electric hot water heaters because of simplicity of installation and maintence along with lower cost. But solar hot air systems whether you build them or buy manufactured, I believe are the best solar thermal opportunity that no one takes advantage of...

Remember, Solar Saves!
Comment
3 of 52
April 28, 2011
BIASED VENDOR COMMENT ALERT!
Tor - thanks for your good and continued efforts to get the word out about solar thermal; "solar" does indeed not automatically equal PV! A couple of thoughts here:
1/ your comment #3 about marketing is the primary challenge the sector faces, especially in the residential side. Most vendors aren't doing themselves any favors by having their marketing collateral denominated in "techie" terminology, but it is also true that the cleantech press and even the solar advocacy community treats solar thermal as an afterthought.
2/ the above issue is that much more egregious on the residential side...there are around 8 million water heaters sold every year in the US and about half are not gas-powered. This is an enormous opportunity for all stakeholders (homeowners, installers, vendors, regulators, utilities) if there only was the awareness. The rest of the world has caught on, why not us?
3/ the issues about cost and installation complexity are indeed out there, but some of us on the vendor side are actively attacking these challenges. Regardless, solar thermal remains a far less up-front cost and subsidy-dependant technology than its peers; especially in non-gas heated water, the concern about payback is by and large a red herring.
4/ incentives indeed are less rich than for PV, but there have been very positive developments in achieving parity, including in NY, MA and MD (where ST is about to be included as part of the state's RPS) along with dozens of utility-led programs around the country.
My company - Sunnovations - is working to raise the profile of solar thermal and demystify how it works, and we have residential technology that dramatically reduces installed cost and complexity. So we are trying to do our part. Keep up the good work, Tor!
Matt Carlson
CEO
Sunnovations Inc.
www.sunnovations.com
Comment
4 of 52
April 28, 2011
Change the focus to business applications and the argument changes. Consider a commercial laundry (or a coin op laundry at the other end of the scale). Daylight on the factory floor, hot air for the dryers and hot water for the washing machines. All before the gas meter lets a single cube through the valve. This is the difference between low profit margin & high energy cost versus higher margin & lower energy cost.

Pulp and paper processing is basically a wash and dry operation, as are other business processes. Most of which businesses operate under expansive low profile roofing, which is solar collecting, whether or not those businesses are putting all that solar energy to good use or not.
Comment
5 of 52
April 28, 2011
Thanks, Tor. The Distributed thermal field certainly needs percs and info-sharing. Making SRECs available for watts of thermal energy is a good way to pay for a system. Many, most, states are severly lagging in this regard tho. SREC trading make so much practical sense as budgets tighten, personal and government wise. Gotta push the reps.. Petition, petition! If you don't let 'em know, they won't respond!
Imagine heating ones home without using fuel! That's pretty kewl! Yah,......... Thats really kewl! And hot!
Comment
6 of 52
April 28, 2011
Good article Fred and great subject.
My take is this: Solar education, and as you stated, more publicity is greatly needed.

A man knows if he plugs in his toaster and it works,
"it may have come from those solar panels I had installed."
On the other hand he does not understand the mechanics of heating his water and most do not realize you have a back-up element, for extended cloudy days. Add these facts to power companies lack of publicity
and we are left with a one-on-one presentation.

The company I had in the early eighties installed over 300 systems. At that time financing was in place and TVA had been mandated by President Carter to do solar. I also had six salesmen and a good lead generating program.

The biggest month we had saw sales of 85 systems. Public energy concerns went from number one to number nine, as gas prices fell.The two year tax credit expired, so me and 39 other companies, under TVA's program, rode off into the sunset.

My present approach is to help folks set a goal of total energy independence, one step at a time. In almost every case, the most efficient"first step" is a solar water heater.

China has offset the need for forty nuclear plants by having most of their homes equipped with a solar water heater.
I am encouraged that Hawaii installed 10,000 in 2010. Even the New England States are making Tennessee look bad. I doubt Tennessee installed over 200 systems in 2010.

DOE figures show that 34,000 were installed nationwide last year. I would love to have a state by state breakdown of those numbers.

Thanks Again for your efforts,
Jim Lindsey solarplexusco.com
Nashville,Tn.
Comment
7 of 52
April 28, 2011
Great thoughts, everyone. Thanks so much for sharing. Really don't have anything to add or disagree with. It's a complex subject and I've learned a great deal from all of your comments. Thank you for generously sharing your thoughts.
Comment
8 of 52
April 29, 2011
Clee: You do not want 50 pounds of water on your roof unless itNEVER gets below freezing. What you speak is an inexpensive Batch heater.

I favor a drainback system whick pumps about 6 gallons of water thru the collectors to pick up the heat and bring it back thru circular pipes in the tank; therefore, exchanging that heat to 120 gallons in your solar tank. You will end up with 120 gallons of water that will reach 185 to 190 degrees. This will last a family several cloudy days.
Any product sold one-on-one has a sales commission. Add that to a high quality solar kit which has a wholesale cost of around $ 5,000, plus $ 1500, or more, for installation.

Of course you want to deal with a company making a profit,or they will not stay in business. Systems in my area retail for around $10,000 minus the 30% tax credit.
Due to electric rates increasing, it is difficult to answer the age old question,"When does it pay for itself?"

My reply to that question is,"When does the system you currently have pay for itself?"
To be able to catch tax free kilowatts for 30 years,at who knows what rate, feels really good. Especially, if for some reason, no kilowatts are being delivered.

Many are surprised to realize their homes increase in value 20 times the annual electric savings. Example: Save $1,000 in electricity and enjoy a tax free home value increase of $ 20,000.

BTW Do not look for all the copper and glass needed in a thermal system to come down in price, like it's PV counterpart.
Comment
9 of 52
April 29, 2011
Well there's two solar thermal technologies out now that can change everything:
1. SunDrum, which captures the heat from the back of solar panels and makes solar hot water with it while cooling down the panels, making them 8% to 14% more efficient in electricity production; and since it attaches to the backs of pv panels, it takes up no roof space;
and 2. Ergenics' solar thermal-powered electric generator. This technology could totally replace solar PV...and unlike PV, the hotter it gets, the MORE electricity is generated.
PLUS: Costs about $1 a watt, no inverters are needed, and with some good thermal insulation, it could keep making power even after the sun's gone down;
MINUS: 21 watts per sqr meter of solar thermal flat plate panels, so it'll take up considerably more space than solar pv, measured per kw produced. That's the only possible "deal killer" I see...
though If you used an evacuated tube solar heating system instead of flat plate, that should make the footprint a lot smaller.

And, no, I don't work for either company. I just know a winning horse when I see it!
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Comment
10 of 52
Anonymous
April 29, 2011
Interesting article. From a UK perspective I think we pay more for our gas I pay 7 cents a KWh according to an online converter. The late Kerr McGregor of the Scottish solar energy association did some research which was published in journals that found that the further north you are (south in the southern hemisphere) the more economic SHW was. I believe he published one paper finding that SHW was more economic north of the Arctic circle in Norway than south of it. I think the reasons for all this are that the mains water is colder the further north you go. So you need more energy to heat the water in summer but also in the spring and autumn to an acceptable temperature.

We have a freeze tolerant solartwin system which we bought six months before subsidies were introduced. For the first five years we had it although the carbon savings are good the financial return was negligible. This all changed in 2007/2008 when we had huge increases in the mains gas price. The was a partial drop in 2009 but we had another increase this year which means I'm paying more than ever before. I have a very interesting and conservative way of working out the savings and capital repayment which I would be willing to write an article on this site. Even on this measure taking the projected system life as 25 years it has just reached the stage in 2008/2009 where it paying back 1/25 of the capital per year. This year will be much better than that.

A few final points. The return is now better than putting money in the bank.

With SHW you have to work at savings switching the boiler off if it looks like being sunny. Looking at the wholesale gas price there will be another increase here in the Autumn.

New systems will get the RHI in the UK soon.

Conclusion. It is possible to compete with the gas grid I think systems will payback, but too slowly for most people. The gas price has got to double again, however, it doubled between 2002-8 here.
Comment
11 of 52
April 29, 2011
All arguemnts have some merit, but in the end the whole question is nonsense. You could also ask what is the ROI of your entrace door or the payback-time for your toilet seat.
The fact is that hot water systems work without any maintenance and they cover 70% of your hot water energy needs over the year (and I am talking of the climate in Austria!). Once installed they provide you with free heating for water for 15, 20, 30 years. The (additional) investment is not higher than a special entrance door if you do when the contruction is done - refurbishing is always more expensive, but still tolerable.

So, please, call the arguements excuses - that's what they are. 15 years ago I installed a system when my house needed a new heating, piping and roof. It cost me about 4000 USD /3000 EUR and covers 70% of the energy bill for the hot water since that day.

See it as a prepayment for the next 20 or 30 years and forget about running costs and claculating a hypothetical return rate that is based on energy costs for the future that nobody knows and interest rates that nobody can predict.

Just do it.
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12 of 52
Anonymous
April 29, 2011
I have natural gas right now. Total monthly bill for a family of 4 in sunny FL? $18-$20. At this time, about a 10 year payback.

EDIT: the solar calculator provided in the article estimates my installed price after rebates and tax breaks to be $4990. ROI time at 19.75 years.
Comment
13 of 52
April 29, 2011
At current prices maybe 10 years, but I think all agree that it will not stay at this level for 10 years.

And for a lifetime of 20 or 30 years it's not bad if it's paid after 10 years.
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14 of 52
Anonymous
April 29, 2011
Quick question for installers (or anyone that knows). How much do they charge to remove and re-install the heating panels when the roof needs replacement?

Thank you
Comment
15 of 52
April 29, 2011
I would guess that it adds a few hour of work to detach them from the solar water cycle and hook them up again. Then the cycle needs refilling and the matter is solved. So I would assume half a day to detach and another half day to re-install. Of course it makes a difference how the roof is built, how teep and how high. Also the size of the single planel makes a difference: the large ones with 1x2 meters typically need a crane (the hydraulic loading crane one on a truck will normally do).
If there is a damage that is paid for by the insurance also the additional cost for removing and re-installing the solar heater should be covered.
Comment
16 of 52
April 29, 2011
Some install composition roofs because of lower price and replace it in 20/30 years, others install a 100 year metal roof.
Tube systems can just clamp on the ribs or lag down because of low wind resistance and weight. Flatties are rough on structures and have low cold winter production. Never want tubes flat on a snowy roof. Tubes are so easy to install. One person in one day. DIY works good too.
Like Popeye says,"yer buys yer ticket and yer takes yer ride".
Comment
17 of 52
April 29, 2011
Dear Jimbox;

When does a Permit to install a Hot water system on your roof not trigger an assessment on your new house value.
When does a new value not trigger a need for more homeowners insurance besides the exclusion of some systems by some insurance companies.
When does the worry stop about the cost of the dismantling of the system to install a new roof. or the worry about roof openings leaking.
Maybe these are a few reasons some people don't think its worthwhile.
I myself will ignore these and install one anyway.....
Comment
18 of 52
April 29, 2011
Clee: Let's face facts, some people just do not like the way collectors look. A prospect once asked me," how do those things look on your roof?" I replied," the more money they save you, the better they look." Apparently his wife disagreed because I did not get the sale.

Personally, I think poles and utility lines are extremely ugly.I view them as chains to the power supplier.

Recently a lady expressed disappointment, due to the best place for the collectors being on the back roof, and said, "I'd rather they be where people could see them."

Please do not concern yourself when a new roof is needed: It takes about an hour to take them off and the same amount of time to replace. A system that uses glycol as the heat transfer fluid, would need an extra hour or two. A few months ago, we did that exact job for a customer with no problem.

Buck: I've never known a pulled permit to cause a new assessment. In some counties a permit is not even needed. The 20 to 1 increase in value,for electricity saved, is an untaxable value. As far as leaks are concerned: We may have experienced 2 or 3 leaks out of 300 plus installations and they were easily fixed.
From my experience, I have found most homeowner policies cover a solar water heater with no additional cost.
Comment
19 of 52
April 29, 2011
Once again, great perspectives here. Jim, thanks for answering these questions. Appreciate it.

Regarding attractiveness of panels, PV has the same issue, though to a less extent. Flat panel collectors are certainly more "attractive." Like Jim, I have also heard of sales that were nixed by not only a wife concerned about the curb appeal, but of course, the dreaded Home Owners Associations.

HOA objections, only regulations can fix. California and other states prevent such arbitrary rules, but it's not common practice yet.

As for the the curb appeal issue, that's a tough one. Sadly, many consumers are more vain than cost conscious or environmentally conscious. Manufacturers can make panels more attractive, somehow, but it is what it is. I think the solution is to change consumer attitudes. The original VW bug and bus were considered ugly, but were prized by owners for lower cost, simplicity, gas mileage, and its uniqueness. Advertisers didn't hide its ugliness, but celebrated it with comparisons and story telling. For marketers, whether PV or solar thermal, we must be creative and do the same.

Thank you all again for your perspectives and experiences here. Appreciate it.
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Comment
20 of 52
Anonymous
April 29, 2011
The life time cost of SHW (if designed to run 20-30 years) is less than gas or hybrid hot water attached air source heat pump to heat the water.
Gas and heat pump to heat the water only last about 10 years? Need to be descaled, gas leaks, CO?
Heat pump to heat the water takes heat from the house air which the HVAC has to replace in winter.
I believe the polluting of groundwater and rivers by fracking may make it so we have no water in droughts or non droughts. Maybe terrorists could not do better. Could use gas for trucks, cars, helicopters medicines...........instead. We have the wrong planning from lobbyists, not independent scientists....
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21 of 52
Anonymous
April 29, 2011
Please watch this about fracking.
http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/613/index.html
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22 of 52
Anonymous
April 29, 2011
I am not concerned about looks; the more visible they are, the louder the message is.
Comment
23 of 52
April 29, 2011
To me, solar hot water is more about human security if not national security than it is about consumerism so my answer to "why" would be gutless building officials, mortgage lenders AND homeowners.

If solar hot water had been defined as an non-removable fixture and put in the building code in the 70s like many people were suggesting we would not have handed the industry to China who now has 135 GW of solar water installed. How many consumers would have purchase building code enforced GFIs, smoke detectors, more rigid floor members, fire walls etc. had they not been placed into the building codes which are designed to protect the public from their (our)own ignorance.
Comment
24 of 52
April 29, 2011
@anon
The electric hot water heater that I replaced with the GE Hybrid, was well over 20 years old (that's why I replaced it- figured it would stop working more sooner than later), I've lived in the house for 21 years and it was far from new when I bought the house. The only maintenance I did was replace the thermostat-control and bypassed some internal wiring that shorted out, no de-scaling, didn't replace any elements, nor the sacrificial anode. Must have good well water here in Maine! No fracking here...

So I expect the GE Hybrid will easily last 20 - 30 years as well, or at least as long as any solar holding tank.

There was also no measureable increase in heating costs and much of my heating is done by solar hot air. It also aids in dehumidifying my cellar air, just has to be in an area that is warmer than 55 degrees F.

To paraphrase Miller Beer: "Less money, works great!"
Comment
25 of 52
April 29, 2011
I am glad it seems we all agree that SHW is definitely worth it. Those concerned with installation costs don't seem to mention or realize that the panels do not have to be installed on a roof. Ground mounted systems can be installed by one person and pipe runs are much easier and usually shorter which also contributes to installation savings. Ground mounts also allow the user to adjust the angle throughout the year for more gain. It also allows for easy cleaning and maintenance. There are several types of systems out there and they all work due to the simple nature of their operation. Use whatever system that is the best fit for your area.
Other considerations that were not mentioned are the cost associated with a regular hot water heater. Replacement cost can be up to $1000 and most tanks only have a 5-10 year warranty, not to mention the cost of the fuel to operate them.

comment #10 Just a note on your MINUS scenario. Double check your data. 21 Watts doesn't seem right. Check some radiation data. And to state that evacs are more space efficient doesn't ring true either. When compared to a flat panel, a flat panel has more absorption area than a bank of evacs when footprint is considered. The amount of BTU's/ft^2 or Watts/m^2 is the same for both as the sun shines. So to say that one gains more than the other by design is not that true. It comes down to square footage and material properties of the absorber. Take a look at solarishot.com for a real time, side by side comparison.
Comment
26 of 52
April 30, 2011
One of the biggest drawbacks to solar thermal is its lack of attractiveness. Architects and designers do not like what is available because it is ugly. Those very designers should try and be a little more creative and work with manufacturers to come up with built in solutions compatible with modern construction.
There is also, no need in many instances to put a panel on a roof when one can use the roof itself. There is lots of mass in them there asphalt shingles. Take the heat out of them.
We need more designer friendly products and more solar friendly designers that explore all fields. Active thermal, Passive thermal and PV.
Comment
27 of 52
April 30, 2011
Gary,

Contact PVT Solar or Dawn Solar. Both offer an in-roof SWH system. It consists of a sheet of plywood that has PEX tubing installed in it. It goes under the shingles and the tar paper. The roof gets hot and so does the water.
Comment
28 of 52
April 30, 2011
Perhaps another way to address the aesthetic complaints herein might be to popularize a "new" solar design ethic in terms of "form following function" and integrating energy dynamics into the notion of "truth in architecture". These are all firmly established historical principles of design. Recalling how proud masons (and other craftsmen) once felt about their latest fireplaces and chimneys, couldn't solar collectors become decorative and marketed as "the new chimneys?"

It takes time for aesthetics (and marketing) to evolve with all innovations. Industrial production of Model Ts preceded transportation comfort and aesthetics too. Solar has yet to adapt to consumer eye appeal and integrate it into building systems but this can only happen as technology and production efficiency adapts too. PV and SHW would probably not look as crude as they do if industry had hired more industrial designers and architects to help with collector and system design. The aesthetic problem may not be with the new technology as much as with recent building design practices... nearly all of which co-evolved with the fossil fuel driven Cold War mentality instead of the new "Solar Age" as envisioned by the likes of Denis Hayes, Bruce Anderson, Amory Lovins and thousands of others in the 70s.

We are suffer from a tragic "Cold War overhang" reflected in our building practices.
Comment
29 of 52
April 30, 2011
Those of us raised in the fifties remember the "beautiful" TV antennas that adorned some homes. Soon to follow were the gorgeous satellite dishes. Beauty is truly in the eyes of the beholder.
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30 of 52
Anonymous
April 30, 2011
Folks; let's make the installed systems' cost equal to 3-5 years of natural gas bills (about $1000-$1800). This way people will get a quick ROI time or make the money back when selling. If we do this, I can guarantee you nobody will give a rat's ass how the panels look.
Comment
31 of 52
April 30, 2011
1. Just to add my 5 cents worth. WE installed radiant floor heating system during our new home construction in Northern GA. We added solar assisted heating. This has saved over 70% in heating bills in comparison to a gas forced furnace heated home. Our floors stay warm. There is no "chill" in the air. I calculated our pay back of 5.5 years by addition of these after tax credits.
2. We distribute solar thermal powered dehumidifiers. Several of these have been installed in Florida.The cost savings in reduction in energy use for air conditioner is about 30%. Besides the comfort level is "priceless"
3. We have a solar thermal assisted air conditioner as well. This works by heating the Freon.(air conditioners work by heating and contracting the freon). This A/C unit saves 25% of energy compared to regular A/C.
4. A NASA engineer is currently bench testing a real solar thermal A/C.(sorry. I have signed a non disclosure form). This should be available by the end of this year.

So, we can heat water, heat a home, dehumidify and make the A/C work a whole lot more efficiently.I wonder why SEIA keeps pushing solar PV? Hmmmmmmmmmm..
Comment
32 of 52
April 30, 2011
Patric thank you.
That is the first I have seen of heard of these companies Moved them over to favorites. I have been looking for years and suggesting similar systems to many solar manufactures
The one system I'm visioning is similar tho the aluminum plate radiant floor heating that get stapled up from below. (An all aluminum plate and pipe would greatly increase the efficiency).
The roof could be sheeted with 3/4 plywood spaced to accept the channels for pipe and layed out in accordance to the shingle nail spacing. Trust me its easy. I have expansion and contraction figured out to. The framers could sheet the roof accordingly and the roofers could install the system at the time of shingling.
I think that would give anonymous 33 His $1,800 system and it would look better than a rodent's behind.
The other concept I have is PV panel that makes the water proof surface and structural element at the same time. I soo disagree with putting a system on a roof. Expansion and contraction are not difficult to deal with. Every thing could be designed to work with a residential roof truss system. The heat can be removed from the back to provide hot water and increase the panels efficiency.
I think it adds up to six in one
1 Roof
2 structural
3 hot water
4 P.V. electric
5 increased P.V. efficiency
6 architectural component.
It's my favorite idea.
Comment
33 of 52
April 30, 2011
George Reynoldson
I like the ideas of aesthetics expressed more artistically in a functional element.
By passing on the growth of solar in the 70's humanity missed an opportunity that we are now having to deal with in urgency. I built my first Passive solar home in 1981 and interest had all but disappeared. This was so unfortunate as the new Passive Solar Energy Book was just about to change the way we looked at solar architecture. Canada's National Research Council then developed the air tight envelope and air to air heat exchanger. Now Dr. Wolfgang Feist has progressed these concepts into the Passive House.
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34 of 52
Anonymous
May 1, 2011
The biggest drawbacks in N. New England are:

o 80-90% of homes are old, are not solar sited, have old roofs; have long runs to the hot water heater in the basement; and have hidden installation charges..

o Despite the emergence of solar kits and easy do-it-yourself installation kits; a savvy homeowner needs certified components, a certified installer, a licensed plumber, a licensed electrician, and possibly a structural engineer to put in a simple system.

o IN order to qualify for a tax credit or grant you need a full energy audit, and may have to pay for other recommendations first, i.e. weatherization.

o Ground mounts are less expensive, but you need correct iting and location, i.e. shading, snow , etc.

O For some odd reason, roofers don't want to quote or include solar into a roofing job.
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35 of 52
Anonymous
May 1, 2011
Someone mentioned that about half the water heaters sold in the US are electric, yet no one is comparing solar hot water with electric hot water, which I promise is more expensive than gas hot water. It sounds as if we are fighting the wrong battle here, when there is one we can easily win just waiting.
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36 of 52
May 2, 2011
The best looking solar hot water heaters are roof integrated and we like the VELUX system best. The collectors are mounted right on the roof deck and look like skylights. In addition to the better looking style many customers want the question of re roofing goes away. For the price conscious customer Sunnovations has the best design we have seen to bring costs down and surely wins the best new design award for solar system innovation. Southern Energy Management finds our customers break into different categories and some will pick each option. Determining which they are quickly is a key to success.
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37 of 52
May 2, 2011
I agree with most comments, there is not enough publicity or education of the Thermal heating option. Solar pool heating is a great place to start. If you've got a pool, you most likely will need a pool heater. Why not go solar? Sure the upfront cost of the actual equipment is pricey, but it will no doubt pay itself off in a matter of years.

Living in FL I have been following any sort of move in the right direction the state has made. TECO (Tampa Electric Company) started, as of April 18th, offering a rebate to those new customers who install solar pool heaters. A great start, but of course the catch being that there is a limit as to how many people will get the rebate.

Once the word of solar pool heating systems spreads a little more, the more people we will see adapting to this lifestyle. I think of it like electric cars, we all have heard of them, we have had time to warm up to the idea and now we see more and more of them out of the roads. Hopefully this same process will happen but with solar panels. Check out http://getsolarpoolheating.com for more information about solar pool heating.
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38 of 52
May 2, 2011
I never thought that the push for all electric homes and vehicles as part of the wind farming industry effort for regional 'smart' grids and off shore wind farming would result in de-emphasizing solar thermal?

I've proposed solar heating panels for keeping anaerobic digesters warm; since you can use large diameter black PVC pipe on several sheets of ply. and move up to special pool heater 'bags'.....BUT they aren't cheap or being made in India /China yet? WHY? Variations on Tromb walls are an attractive option.

Perhaps solar people aren't reaching out to the pool people or home designers or better yet, condo associations?
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39 of 52
Anonymous
May 2, 2011
Frank,
Solar thermal has come a long way from the yester years. The concept of Tromb wall is not new. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trombe_wall) In fact India has a large number of buildings in the North closer to the Himalayas. These buildings do not have any other heat source. Lately there are many companies gone there to teach them to use solar thermal power to heat homes and businesses.
Talking to the condo and apartment dwellers is like talking to a wall despite the fact they are paying anywhere from 300 - 3000 dollars a month for "Condo Fee". Recently we were invited to see a very large condo complex. They are paying $65,000 PER MONTH to obtain hot water from a neighboring place!! We suggested installing a large number of solar collectors. It would pay off within 4 years. Hopefully they will realize the potentials of installing a solar thermal system.
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40 of 52
May 2, 2011
The biggest bang for the buck is solar thermal period. It is also the least expensive per ton at removing CO2 from the air.
When architecture strives to emphasize solar structures instead of seeing it as an add on to a preconceived concept a whole new world opens up and reveals a unique beauty in simplicity.
A cold winters crisp sunny day, with a fresh snow fall, in a well designed passive solar home is truly a magical experience. We are so missing the boat in North American home design.
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41 of 52
May 4, 2011
AMEN.
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42 of 52
May 5, 2011
TROMBE walls are low-cost, architecturally integrated components in a solar heating system for rural Maine...nearly maintenance free!

Posting from a barrier island(heavily populated, btw), you'd think every roof would have solar thermal integrated into it---lots of new construction; and every house would be solar sited. Plenty of pools and hot tubs.

Nope.

Maybe I should get a grant and survey people on why they didn't or if they did, don't have solar heated hot water.


I rented a bike and the shop also had electric scooters and carts; all recharged from a hefty array of solar panels. I inquired as to the effect and was informed the new owner was a founder of a successful natural baby products company in U.K. and had bought three businesses in a row---a natural home products company in one, the bike shop, and a glitzy cafe, over the past two years.

Each new one was more 'sustainable' than the others; and the latest had a rain barrel, stainless not like the original wooden ones that were common on this island, and a roof completely covered with either PV or thermal(flat) panels.

I was told the cafe was producing as much energy as it used--air conditioning, pannini makers, refrigeration, etc. and that the panels were grid tied, i.e. not feeding a large battery bank.

I am going to try and get to meet the owner and find out a bit more; but this was a very expensive installation....50+ PV panels, connectors, etc. Wondered whether DC appliances w/battery storage were considered; the size of her hot water storage tanks; and how 'hurricane', hail, and storm proof the installation was?

What is so cutting edge about this, is that they are three fairly conventional businesses with heavy demands for electricity. Just seeing those bikes plugged into a recharger that was connected to the panels(probably not, but could be) was an exciting glimpse into the future of several seasonal Maine businesses.
Comment
43 of 52
May 6, 2011
Thanks for the post Frank

We will truly be on our way to a sustainable future when such forward thinking becomes the norm.
Hopefully the ostentatious presentation of "look at my wealth" McMansions will give way to "I'm saving more energy than you are" homes
Comment
44 of 52
May 6, 2011
#26 Clee's statement "So why is it that the Chinese can build solar thermal hot water systems for under $200, in some cases as little as $100.
One of the solar thermal "dealer" goes around buying these $200.00 collectors from China and installs them. Unfortunately they are neither SRCC certified (Hence no tax credits) nor have any quality control. These collectors have "tail light"warranty. As the saying goes, you get what you paid for.
Comment 18-- Very well said. The evacuated tube collectors run hotter than flat panels. During winter months the difference is really great as there is absolutely no heat loss.Hence it is widely used for assisted heating of homes (including ours).This saves a lot of $$$ in heating homes.
Comment #39 by Bob -- The Velux is a flat panel. It puts out 29,000 BTU per collector.It may look pretty, but will need several collectors to heat even everyday water during summer time. Forget about winter months as this will not do any heating. See SRCC ratings. As mentioned above, several evacuated tube collectors already put out 45,000 BTU plus.We have such a system. It was also installed on one of our architect's home which looks like an awning over the bed room window.She has received several comments as to how beautiful t looks!
#29 - "Lack of attractiveness"-- makes no sense. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I saw a picture of a south facing home in Germany during my visit to the Baltic recently. They have installed 10 collectors right in front all around their home! They have a 900 gallon tank which provides hot water and home heating for "free". I suppose they think this is "beautiful."
We are working with an architect and a developer to build 200 extremely energy efficient small homes. The market study showed that this type of homes are preferable to Macmansions in particular for the elderly who do not want to speculate future cost increases.
Comment
45 of 52
May 7, 2011
SRCC, just another scam to make money. Any competent engineer can test a module for output. Material properties, a decent frame, insulation and good sealed glazing is all you need to make hot water.(Don't forget the black garden hose on the driveway) Not some 'qualified', testing for fee operation.
And once again, for a real time, side by side comparison of flatties to evacs go to www.solarishot.com
Comment
46 of 52
May 7, 2011
Thomas Mayrand, thank you for this information and link. I think it would be interesting for schools and science museums to run this kind of test for people to look at in particular places. Also, some time ago, I posted a link for a jury-rigged evac-tube made of pop cans covered with duct tape painted black and then put in an insulated box with a glass top. He was getting high temperatures quickly with this set-up, in very cold weather.
Comment
47 of 52
May 7, 2011
What a scientific test! Sister's house............. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
Poor sister!!!!!!! Who made the money?? If SRCC was a scam they would be out of business like many fly by night "solar installers".
Comment
48 of 52
May 9, 2011
Usdoc1, give them time..they will be gone eventually too, just like every other fly by night solar certification entity as you said. The reason they stay in business now is becauxe of the money they charge and the belief that niave people put in them and the cronies that get their share keeping them alive.
And I guess real time data bothers you. If you can't believe what is right in front of your eyes, just keep believing what you are told.
No image available
Comment
49 of 52
Anonymous
May 9, 2011
Dealers & installers need components that have been tested in cold weather; not Florida. I tend to shop in Canada where SRCC is not a pre-condition.

Given the growth in various solar organizations you'd think they could now afford a testing facility above the Mason/Dixon line...and hopefully end all these superfluous conferences, e'zines, etc.

China does have standards and you can buy diff. grades. I have yet to see an article which discusses Chinese quality control and component specifications set by various State R & D institutes.

Quick question; does it take longer & more radiant energy to heat glycol or water?

Pro's and cons of vac's vs. flat plates re. New England.

Vac's pick up energy when sun is rising and setting; flat plates can be mounted vertically to pick up radiation reflected from snow/ice.

Vac's if broken by wind blown tree limbs or ice can be more easily replaced or just left alone, than a cracked flat plate.....remembers one frantic call in January from a guy seeking special glass for one of his panels and unable to buy it from a local glass company.

These are among the critical considerations not addressed in the narrow band of SRCC tests to my knowledge.
Comment
50 of 52
May 11, 2011
Quick question; does it take longer & more radiant energy to heat glycol or water?

Glycol. It has a higher specific heat. Therefore it takes a little more energy to heat a given mass of glycol than the same mass of water. This is why it is used in auto radiators. It can absorb more energy with out boiling away.

And hopefully that broken evac can be found and replaced, especially if it is a few years old. Glazing and copper can be fixed easily.
Comment
51 of 52
May 18, 2011
I ordered a pressurized evacuated tube SWH from a major company in China in 2009 after searching the U.S. unsuccessfully for a responsive and reasonably-priced dealer. I worked with a local customs broker and imported it myself. The total cost was around $1500. My brother and I hooked it up to household plumbing using PEX and a mixing valve. It operates off household mains pressure. No pumps, motors, controllers, etc. It is the essence of simplicity. It consists of a 60 gallon tank and 18 evacuated tubes with internal copper rods which connect inside the tank, all supported by a sturdy metal frame. It is sitting on the ground outside my house pointed south. I have not spent a cent for hot water beyond the cost of the unit & installation since installing it. It works fabulously well. I can't imagine why the things are not being imported by the millions. Or why we don't license the technology to build them here and create jobs for our own workers.
Comment
52 of 52
October 11, 2011
Solar hot water seems like an amazing opportunity for us all! We should care about the opportunities we have.

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