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Help! Someone explain to me why solar hot water is such a solar stepchild in the U.S.!

By Tor 'Solar Fred' Valenza
July 8, 2010   |   21 Comments

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21 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 21
July 8, 2010
Hi Tor, great post as always. Could it be that there are not one or two major players really pushing the PR side of solar thermal? I CA we're seeing & hearing all sorts of ads from SunRun, SolarCity, Sungevity on TV and on the radio (in addition to online). Whereas I don't think I've ever seen a solar thermal ad. Similarly, it seems like there are a few PV panel manufacturers and leasing / PPA companies that have huge PV installer networks. Does that exist for solar thermal? My quick glance at the solar thermal industry made me think it was much more fragmented without the same sort of national or international players that we see in PV. That said, I could be missing something since I haven't spent that much time looking into the solar thermal market.

Thoughts?
-David
Comment
2 of 21
July 8, 2010
Hi:

Public perception is set by buzz. So you can simplify your question by just focusing on the, "why PV more press" aspect for you answer. In this podcast;
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/podcast/2010/06/utilities-are-warming-to-solar-hot-water
one of the parties explains rather well why PV got its foot in the door for the 2005 subsidies start and going forward. You also have to look at who benefits. PV produces electricity. Period. Thermal can displace any of the conventionals, including electricity (electric water heaters, etc.). This from an energy conservation and energy engineering perspective is great! But, that is not what drives markets. Profit drives markets. So there is no one conventional energy player that can funnel a profit solution based on the output of the technology. PV is simple, electricity, grid providers and power companies. Produced / displaced power etc.. can be precisely calculated and measured. That really explains the predigest if you extrapolate out to all the business possibilities. From an engineering design and install prospective, thermal is tougher because it requires a more diverse set of skills. You need electrical and plumbing skills, the same construction skills. Plus, you don't have fluid leaks with electricity, mechanical wear and tear as with water and HVAC based solutions, which solar thermal is very similar to. It is also easier to run wire than plumbing, especially on a retrofit. As for the failures of the 80's, that is the mantra of the controlling entities in place now which suppress the market, and uses that as the excuse to justify their existence. The fact is that back in the 70's and 80's, money was just thrown out there at the industry. No accountability was in place, so naturally there were abuses, but there were actually more successes than failures, by a wide margin. Today there is still no accountability, its just a question as to who holds those cards and is playing them for control.

.....Bill
Comment
3 of 21
July 8, 2010
Both Bill and David are right on summarizing the "ugly" cousin of PhotoVoltaic market. Solar Thermal will be realized over time but will be nothing like the boom, and sometimes bust of the PV effort.

Ken
Comment
4 of 21
July 9, 2010
From a solar consumer's perspective, here's my two cents:

- there's a good amount of truth to the 1970s/80s ding on solar thermal; I don't know how true it is that it didn't live up to expectations, but I do know what I see, and what I see in my own neighborhood that's leftover from the 1980s is U-G-L-Y. Big, awkward looking tilts, faded, dirty, crusty panels, etc.
- Solar thermal doesn't hold the attraction of covering your home's entire electric use
- as far as I know, many solar thermal installations still have to be tilted; that's a big drawback, especially in HOA city (we live in an HOA that approved our PV system with no tilt, but which might not have responded the same way to a tilted solar thermal unit)

Just a few random, un-expert observations from a consumer who recently had a 5.59 kW PV system installed on his roof (and now there's not enough room for solar thermal -- sorry...)
Comment
5 of 21
July 9, 2010
Wish I knew how to post a picture in the comments (maybe you can't do it?), but here's a link to a picture on SolarDave.Com that shows a nice looking mixed installation of PV and solar thermal on the same Telluride, Colo. rooftop. -- http://www.solardave.com/index.php/telluride-solar-pv-and-thermal-panels-on-one-roof/
Comment
6 of 21
July 9, 2010
Hi CH:

Right now your array is "shiny and new". Lets see in thirty years how black/blue your PV cells are and how silver looking or anodized your AL racking is. Ever seen brown and dark yellow PV. Dirty black leaf stained AL racking?
As for tilt, its an Engineering choice designed to balance energy output. The goal of solar thermal and high "R" envelopes, is to reduce load so the job can be easier for PV and wind. Building roofs need to be designed with solar in mind, both PV and thermal. Then tilt would not be necessary. Consumers drive the markets ultimately, and Americans historically just have not been concerned with energy sustainability until its hits them in the wallet. This, by the numbers, is still true today. I believe it really comes as a function as to the size of the country and the availability of resources. It is really simple. If you piss and krap in the ocean, the consequences will not hit home for a very long time, most likely. However, if you do the same in your swimming pool, your behavior will be altered very quickly. As humans, scarce is valued, abundance is not.

.....Bill
Comment
7 of 21
July 9, 2010
Last I read about 1% of US homes had PV installed. I did a quick Google-search just now but couldn't find meaningful info on what % of US homes have solar hot water installed...However my guess is that it is a larger % than PV.

Another reason why PV's buzz may trounce solar hot water is that heating water accounts for perhaps 15%? of total energy bill(depends on location, needs, size of family). On one level it makes sense that individuals are more concerned with the portion that drives the most expense. Also, if this problem can be solved/addressed en masse it will provide the most return to society.

That being said, if solar hot water has higher ROI it does make sense that we should optimize/maximize whatever efficiency we can squeeze out there.

I know living in AZ and my water heater is gas powered, that my hot water expense is quite low. There is also the issue that solar hot water may not meet 100% (85% by some estimates) of a household's hot water needs, meaning either a gas or electric is still needed, or sometimes you go without hot water when desired on demand.

For me, the return just doesn't appear to make sense in laying out $3K - $5K when the break even period will likely be well over a decade...maybe 2.
Comment
8 of 21
July 9, 2010
On a funny journey, all true for residents...perhaps, but what about for hotel owners? Laundry services? Apartment buildings? Hospitals? Car washes. All of these would benefit from solar thermal in the long run, but are unaware. I'm hoping to change that with PR that shows the economic analysis and payback.
Comment
9 of 21
July 9, 2010
I like Bill's answer but I think a big part of it is that there is no hot water grid for back-up. People don't like the idea of having their power go out, but I think they really hate the idea of not being able to have a hot shower.

It's also less "sexy" than PV is. PV went to space, everyone talks about PV and not solar thermal so there is a sort of self-feeding buzz about it. Which is why it's so important to have more blog posts like this!
Comment
10 of 21
July 9, 2010
Hey, Carter.

Actually, there is a hot water grid. It's your gas company or electric utility. Just because you go solar hot water, it doesn't mean that that you have to give up the reliability of getting hot water whenever you want it. Same with PV. The solar system just produces most of your electric or gas needs, and then at night, the utility-based system backs you up.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Tor
Comment
11 of 21
July 9, 2010
I appreciate the concern which is been rose. The things need to be
sorted out because it is about the individual but it can be with
everyone.
--------
Rental Cars Sale
Comment
12 of 21
July 9, 2010
I appreciate the concern which is been rose. The things need to be
sorted out because it is about the individual but it can be with
everyone.
--------
Rental Cars Sale
Comment
13 of 21
July 9, 2010
Shahi41, thanks for spamming. Please, everyone else who cares about solar, continue to lend your thoughts. These comments are much appreciated.
Comment
14 of 21
July 10, 2010
sure 15% decrease in bills isn't much but i will take it any way.as for me personaly i like the idea of solar water because i seems more DIY to me.i have taken enough falls that u won't see me of the roof for much time at all and one of the solar hot water options i read about was mounted on an exterior wall about 10 feet off the ground.besides that way i would have complete control over shadeing issues since a neighbors tree wouldn't make much difference to me.
Comment
15 of 21
July 10, 2010
Hi All:

Two 30 tube evacs (47mm x 1500mm) mounted at 60 to 65 Degs, with good access and orientation with at least 80 gallons of preheat storage, can provide over 90% of your TOTAL DHW load for up to a family of 4 or 5, depending on ages... sun location.. those numbers are good here in PA, so you don't need SUPER sun to hit that.
That can be more than 15% of your energy bill. If you figure 20 GPD per adult and 10 GPD for each child, family of 4, 60 gallons x 8.4 Lb x 60 Deg delta x 365 Dys/Yr = 10.03 million BTU's a year. As an example, if you were heating with an electric water heater, converted to KWH = 3234 x 13 Cents/KWH = 420 x .9 (90% avg) = 378USD savings. Depending on where you live as to your heating and cooling load, that could be bigger than 15% of total load. And that is just a family of 4, not 5 or 6 as in some cases, throw in a few teenagers and you get the picture... There are other benefits as well like having hotter water via the sun (usually in non-heating season), never running out of it, (40 or 50 gal as backup heater + the 80 gal preheat = 120 gal+...) And best of all, what a great feeling it is taking 95% (grid elect to run pump, controls) clean energy for you hot water... If PV powered pump and controls, 100% clean...

.....Bill
Comment
16 of 21
July 10, 2010
Bill, you're a true solar hot water vet and resource of information. I knew you'd be contributing some great information for this post, and I thank you.
Comment
17 of 21
July 12, 2010
Good discussion Tor!
1) SWH industry is happy where it is. There are only a few big manufacturers and they are happy to keep it that way in the U.S.
2) the 'mystery factor' is missing. People get that 'black tubes in sun heat water.' PV is more intriguing.
3) most importantly, the product is hard to sell. Water heating is a small part of the energy bill for the sunnier states, and a hidden part of it - mixed in with air/space heating. So it's hard to convey the actual $$ financial value to consumers. And, water leaks. Electrons (seemingly) disappear.

The U.S. residential market WILL adopt SWH en masse when we make it easy and affordable, along with efficiency retrofits and green building materials.
Comment
18 of 21
July 13, 2010
OK folks, I have been in this business for 20 years, both hot water and PV and I am also a gas tech. From my point of view, PV is much simpler, cleaner and has much less after sales service and if it is not optimally designed, but close, it still works reasonably well. Not so for hot water. We have all sorts of lit out there telling people all that solar hot water can do and there is not the easily checkable fact base that there is with PV (most people can under a KWh but how many non-professionals really understand a Btu or heat expressed in Kwh as is done in most of the world).

Add to this, that oversizing a thermal system can make it fail in a matter of a year or two, this doesn't happen much with a PV system. The thermal technologies are vastly different....pool panels to high performance vacuum tubes and demand different attention. Longevity is the biggest issue. While a flat plate SWH panel wil last 20-30 years, most don't, due to lack of attention (north Americans hate maintanence) and the biggest kicker of all, I was told by the president of a major Chinese tube company, while at Intersolar in 2005, that the tubes are really designed for a lifespan of 5-7 years and this is the reality in China. Tubes get changed on a semi regular basis because they are so cheap, an this is OK over there. We want sonething to last 25 years and the chances are that if it fails in 7-8 years the original installer is no where near so we get orphan systems and a bad reputation.

80% of my work has been SDHW until the FIT program took hold in Ontario and it is now moving the other way. Europeans have had the same complaints about PV vs Thermal as we have. Yes it gets all the attention and probably always will. There is something mysterious about it and we really like a mystery.
Comment
19 of 21
July 13, 2010
Hi MH:

I would agree with basically everything you mentioned...
Electricity when it "malfunctions" either does one of two things. Shorts with momentary heat and flash, localized fire which hopefully stays in "the box", or fails open, so zilch effect. Shorts usually wind up as an "open", so once again everything stops. With a leak, if its tied to an "infinite" fluid source, it keeps coming till someone stops it, city water supply, well pump, etc.. Can be highly destructive. This is true of all plumbing systems including your regular cold and hot water infrastructure in the residence. I believe if there was a way to keep all "water" outside without the personal environmental inconveniences (-10 DegF toilet seat, etc..LOL..) that would be the preferred choice. Cars based on ICE's are another real messy solution. We put up with both (water, ICE cars) of those because there is no current alternative. If, BTW you think cars based on ICE's are not dirty, go change your oil, spark plugs and a muffler. That should give you a clear perspective. Digressing a bit more, that is one of the BIG positives of pure electric vehicles. The number of systems you get to "dump" is amazing. They are so clean and simple to maintenance. Anyway, as ST designs get more standard, materials keep improving and new construction incorporation becomes the norm, the somewhat superficial negatives will fade away.
Down the road I believe, once PV hits 50% one sun efficiency and high density, long lasting and low cost electrical storage becomes available, the bulk of solar energy will be captured as electric no matter what the load energy form....

.....Bill
Comment
20 of 21
July 14, 2010
Great comments all. I think we are now seeing an awareness build for solar thermal so I really appreciate the discussion. (I'm actually going to repost my comments that just DISAPPEARED.. because I heart all that seek energy justice. Anyone else have problems posting? Anyone else have issues with throwing computer against wall when badly designed sites hiccup and start over?)

Addressing the first point: ST is more efficient but PV offsets more of the utility bill - Solar thermal starts at 75% efficiency. Touch that PV! The misconception that PV offsets 100% of a SFH electricity needs is BS. Maybe for the donkey commuter but we're trying to convert the masses. Gas is cheap; electricity is relatively cheap.. for the time being. We use a whole lot more electricity than gas and we see that in the utility bill. But with ST you can offset 50% and greater of the energy need for the same price as a 5% PV impact. A dollar spent/dollar saved challenge would be a good media effort.

Touching the second point: ST is more difficult and PV looks better - ST is absolutely a bit more difficult, but only has a reliability issue if installed by the non skilled (same as PV). Its not plug n play! But "looks bad"? Really? Looks the same to me, in fact vacuum tubes are pretty cool looking.

Main point: PV sexy and ST gets no air time - Yep. I think this is far and away the primary issue. Getting our electrical needs from the Sun is waaaay intriguing. Americans want to feel good that they are doing the right thing rather than making any behavioral change. Do we seek energy efficiency before installing renewable energy? Its the natural thing to do, reduce demand first, then offset use. Knocking the electric bill down is the feel good justification for PV. We do it because we want to help the environment and move our society into the light. PV is easy; its all the buzz; its subsidized; it takes no behavior change.

But kudos on you all for making this happen!
Comment
21 of 21
July 14, 2010
Following up how to make solar thermal main stream: Highlight the efficiency - if GHG offset is the goal I'd put the ST against PV for CO2 offset AND CO2 mnf recovery any day; Achieve State wide incentives - with a bit of help payback is five years and better; but most important we need a social mobilization toward efficiency, not generation. We recycle not because it saves money, we turn off the lights because its the norm, hell in my town they don't even flush the toilets ;)
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Tor 'Solar Fred' Valenza

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About: Tor Valenza aka “Solar Fred” is the founder of UnThink Solar, a strategic communications firm dedicated to helping solar companies reach solar customers through... more »
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