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The Gulf Spill: Addiction Reaction

By Ken Zweibel
June 2, 2010   |   17 Comments

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17 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 17
June 2, 2010
Hi Ken:

Interesting thoughts.... but often I think people in the sciences or engineering field forget that underneath it all, we are animals which are the result of millions of years of genetic engineering. In our daily lives most of our "GUT and BASE" reactions to things are a result of those developed instincts. This includes who we find sexually attractive (I don't mean gay VS straight here), what personalities we find amicable, etc.. AND our base perceptions of things in the environment. Energy, or as a start FIRE, all through our LONG historical past was the discovery that allowed man to no longer fear the darkness. The sun abandoned us every day (night) leaving us vulnerable. It was by BURNING that this problem was solved. A high density fuel source, wood, coal, oil, NG etc. provided a small area high temperature source of energy. The sun, wind, shallow geothermal etc.. are large area low density energy sources. They are at a root level very different in nature. So to keep this somewhat short, even though we apply "knowledge" on top of our brains, that DOES NOT make those base feelings go away... it only presents an opposing "view" to them if you wish. So, where am I going with this... continued below...
Comment
2 of 17
June 2, 2010
I am specifically targeting your first three paras... which are trying to figure where this, what seems to be "natural aversion/misunderstanding" comes from. I don't think it is really an aversion or dislike. I think it is as simple as we only think of "real" energy producers as concentrated and hot, at a base level (FIRE). The hotter and more concentrated it is, the more respect/fear we give it (Nukes as example). I do solar energy demos using twin axis parabolic technology. I vaporize Aluminum cans, burst soaking wet wood into flames, etc.. high drama... usually for school kids. The kids are not the only ones with their mouths hanging open... To close, people need real, visual in person experience to frame a new reality around the power in the sun and wind, which is just slightly out of sight in their normal daily experiences. As solar and wind applications become more of our daily exposure, a new reality of what constitutes "power" will be formed..... but it will take time... or a global crash course...

.....Bill
Comment
3 of 17
June 4, 2010
The idea of "Wind and Solar energy being too expensive" shows an underlying misconception. The idea of Wind and Solar energy systems is to supply Energy. This cannot be "paid-for" with Money, because money is just paper - albeit beautifully worked. The price of any energy supply lands ultimately upon the environment. We just get the energy, which thenn makes it possible for money to have value - i.e. for there to be anything to buy.
The beauty of wind and solar energy is that the Operating cost - to the environment - is Zero. There is of course, though, the energy required to create the system. Initially this will HAVE - i.e. there is no alternative - than for that burdenn to be placed ipon the natural environment because the energy will have to come from thise sources which we currently have.
Unless, therefore, the wind or Solar energy supply can provide enuf energy to enable it to be replicated before it "dies", it is simply further burden upon the natural world. i.e. we leave the Earth that bit more dead for the future of everything.
According to data from a public meeting in Llandeilo in July '05, "modern Windfarms" supply only small fraction of the energy required to replace, or duplicate them. They are actually Nett Users of energy - but with a great "feelgood factor". I imagine it's about equivalent of an armful of junk for an addict. This is of course, far from funny. Meanwhile, it IS readily possibly to obtain several whole percent p.a. of the cost of a Sensible design of wind-energy system. Neither are such systems in the least bit obtrusive in a landscape. There are 4 very solid factors which account for the (observed) disparity in performance. for these email bertdotwindonatgmaildotcom
Comment
4 of 17
June 4, 2010
I like your article but there are some facts that are missed; first oil has become a part of those states where the effects of the spill are hitting. The economy has been bolstered by oil for sometime and to do away with it will set the region back with nothing else to replace it. That being said, as horrible as this disaster is to the environment and the local resource dependent economy the rest of the nation doesn't understand that a lot of folks down there depended on the oil industry.
As for having enough wind to over come the variability issue, with that comes additional curtailment; I don't know of any wind energy producers that will agree to cut their profits in trade for energy security on a national scale. remember the dollar rules. As for wind and solar having 0 environmental effects there are a lot of folks out there who will disagree to solar farms in sensitive desert areas and others who will fight wind farm development for environmental reasons including the "not in my back yard" bunch. We want the benefits without the cost to our personal space.
Comment
5 of 17
June 4, 2010
Even highly-subsidized wind developers admit they lost their competitive advantage with declining natural gas prices. Moreover, the windpower industry refuses to ask government to demonstrate the additional costs needed to backup the intermittent energy source with gas. Then, there would be the much higher costs of running electric vehicles due to costs for batteries.

If the US really wants to get off oil and gas (and the terrible spills), while creating sustainable jobs during these tough economic times, the country needs to stop picking winners for alternative energy like wind and solar for electricity, as well as corn and cellulose for liquid ethanol vehicle fuel. The US must deregulate the electricity and gas industries fairly this time and let the market encourage clean and economic alternatives.
Comment
6 of 17
June 4, 2010
Mike-holly
I agree, the latest study WWSIS gives false hope for a wind/solar based energy platform. The Sandia Lab study is much more realistic because it includes the storage element; we just need government to adjust regulation that will level the playing field.
Comment
7 of 17
June 4, 2010
We have a tragedy in the BP Gulf oil well spill where the 'environmentalists' share blame. How, you ask? Near coast, shallow depth wells are in disfavor because they are too close to the shorelines. Environmental activism has a lot of influence here in pushing oil companies far out to sea where water depths present challenging operating environments. Does anyone with an engineering background not agree that had this been a well blow out at 200-300 feet under water, the well leak would have already been repaired? Now we have a disaster when we should have just had a problem IF the well was drilled in shallower waters near the coast line.
No image available
Comment
8 of 17
Anonymous
June 4, 2010
NC,

think of the volume of Oil per volume of Water of the current spill and 2 dimensional surface area A effected. Now bring that in closer to the shore in shallower water (not to mention the increase in # of life forms per volume of water) the surface area affected would be dramatiaclly higher and the life forms impacted would be higher as well.

The above does not take time as a variable, which is what I think you are getting at, but while I am sure that depth has an impact on recovery time...they sure got the currently damaged equipment down there in a reasonable time and budget right?

No, I am not an engineer, but I play one on TV. and to be honest, what I'm hearing is that the Environmentalists really screwed up and made a problem a disaster by forcing the multi billion dollar Oil companies to drill for oil in a location that they couldn't safely drill at a cost effective level. We'll have to make sure that God takes his share of the blame too for puting the oil field in such a hard to reach place for humans. Don't forget to blame a little on the barnicle that got in the way of the device to do it's job, oh yeah and the Sun and Moon really screwed up because the currents and tides created by thier gravity have spread the spill so far and effected so much area. If we had only gotten rid of the Sun and the Moon first the spill wouldn't be nearly as bad.

FE
Comment
9 of 17
June 4, 2010
WOW to the last two...!!
I wouldn't say shallow well drilling was at a stand still in the USA... According to an MSNBC article..."Over 46,000 wells have been drilled in the Gulf of Mexico offshore in less than 1,000 feet of water since 1949," said Noe.
I don't know how many there would have been if the enviro's weren't there, but 46K seems to be a pretty big number...
If you really want to see the problem, take a look in the mirror... buy an SUV did you, after the '73 oil imbargo and the Exxon ValD...?? I didn't but I bet you both did... not getting personal but stats are on my side that you did...
The failure EVERYONE knows and it is said over and over and over and over again in "print" everywhere on every topic. MONEY RULES. Period. There is your answer and there is your problem. Money must be the winner by definition... EVERYTHING else takes second place... But KNOWONE wants to stand up and say, "a world based on currency is the problem, and its a big one... can we solve it..."
Everyone is Sooooooooooo surprised and outraged over the oil spill, PLEASE, ALL SYSTEMS FAIL, IT IS ONLY A QUESTION OF WHEN". There will be another nuke, another oil, another gas, on and on... I am stopping.. tired of banging my head against the wall....

.....Bill

.....Bill
Comment
10 of 17
June 4, 2010
Bill...

No, we will not find a solution to that problem. The next best thing is to recognize the potential harm the by products of that problem are and reduce their impact which is, if GhG is considered a matter of survival, reduce our use of fossil fuel, etc. The list of potential harm(s) from wealth, as you put it, is so long it would take a year to put down, however so would the benefits of the same item - wealth. That being said let's narrow down the definition and address greed as opposed to need. That will take a while. The problem is if we dwell on the problems and their solutions time moves on creating a deeper hole to get out of, so what do we do? We remain in a state of "catchup and repair" until we realize, one day far in the future, we may have covered all the issues with bandaids and stopped the bleeding. I think that is where we are now, playing doctor without a plan to save the patient's life.
There, that wasn't so bad was it?
Comment
11 of 17
June 4, 2010
Hi M3:

"No, we will not find a solution to that problem."
If that is indeed correct, then I fear it will be a slow and painful death by a thousand cuts, rather than life with a thousand band-aids...

.....Bill
Comment
12 of 17
June 5, 2010
The real problem with this oil spill was that BP didn't have an adequate plan in place if a spill did occur. BP evidently did not follow the proper procedure to seal the well. This led up to the explosion on the Deep Horizon. In short BP took a short cut and it went up in smoke. This country hasn't had a major oil spill in a long time. This unfortunately made the conditions for complacence attitude.
The reason we are sticking with oil is that it is much cheaper than the renewable sources of energy. Wind energy has a 1.9 cent per kilo watt hour energy production credit. Yes your tax dollars are paying for those wind projects. When the cost analyses are done on these projects they use creative book keeping getting the numbers to come out favorably.
For instance solar energy is more cost effective in the southwest than the northwest part of this country. The southwest just get a whole lot more sunny days.
What people need to do is take off their blinders and look around, and ask themselves what I can do to make the world a better place. As consumers we need to separate our wants from our needs. When selecting a vehicle do we need a large vehicle, or will smaller one fulfill our needs. Just because you can afford a larger vehicle does not mean you should buy one. You are better off spending the money on a hybrid, or improving efficiency of your home.
Low cost energy allows us to live high quality life style. Without it we would have shortages of food, and everything would cost a whole lot more. We would have problems transporting goods across the county with out fossel fuels.
Comment
13 of 17
June 6, 2010
thom eyres
The cost discussions of renewable versus traditional energy remind me of the recycling wars in the 70s and 80s. How wrong were we then, and why have we learned so little? Traditional bury a lot of hidden costs, especially the polluting costs, so only a portion of the TCO shows up on their side. The Europeans, without the delusion of unlimited land mass and resources, are making the right Clean Energy response. China, despite our constant criticism, are also making large strides in clean energy. The more the US hesitates, the more future jobs they lose each day and the more the future cleanup costs from dirty energy escalates. Is it not worth a few hundred dollars each year for every citizen to accelerate clean energy development and give their offspring and next generation an outside chance to both environmental and economic prosperity? Perhaps it could be marketed with the traditional - for only the cost of a cup of coffee a day, you can do your part to save the planet for yourself and your loved ones.
Comment
14 of 17
June 6, 2010
Hi All:

Ping.......... Pong...........Ping...........Pong..Ping..Pong..Ping..Pong..
If only I could stop drinking liquid... I wouldn't have to pee....

.....Bill
No image available
Comment
15 of 17
Anonymous
June 8, 2010
Bill,

Actually I drive a 40 mpg car and an Ecar to work. work in solar for reasons other than the almighty $ (and have for most of my life). I think you missed the sarcasm in my post. we are...essentially...in agreement. I am arguing that you cannot claim that Environmentalists take any of the blame for the reason stated.
Comment
16 of 17
June 8, 2010
from the article----" Underneath this is a basic absence of commitment to solar and wind (and presumably electric transport). It used to be that people dismissed solar and wind as just too expensive, but wind has already shown that being cost-effective is not enough."--------

That would be because wind and solar can not power vehicles. There are no electric vehicles available that even remotely come close to meeting our transportation needs.

Biofuels on the other hand are here, now and have been for many years. Biofuels can do anything we need done, including using in mixture with petroleum, or completely without petroleum.

Using ethanol, we can even double the efficiency of internal combustion engines---using all off the shelf parts and well known, well used technology we've had for years. Something that is completely impossible using petroleum----even with hybrid technology.

It does not seem to me that wind and solar have much relevance in need to get rid of the dependence on oil. It seems to me, just a distraction from the main issue---getting off oil dependence.
Comment
17 of 17
June 9, 2010
Hi Anom:

I understand... I said "both of you" which was a directed response, but it really was still a "generic" finger point if you wish, based just on shear probability. You auto choices are commendable. You are correct about the shallow water blame game... ridiculous at the least..
Since you are in TV, if you like movies, one of my favorites in the remake category is, "The day the earth stood still". There is a great line given by the old Chinese gent in McDonalds at the table... just from memory, "the really sad part is that they seem to know whats happening to them but they are unable to change it."

.....Bill
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Ken Zweibel

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About: Ken Zweibel has almost 30 years experience in solar photovoltaics. He was at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (Golden, CO) much of that time and the pro... more »

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