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Ethanol Pipeline Coming to a City Near You?

By Stephen Lacey
January 20, 2010   |   46 Comments

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46 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 46
January 22, 2010
--------"What do you think? Is this the kind of project we need to see in order to get the U.S. economy back on track?"----------

Even if the project does not create the number of jobs suggested by the study, the only other alternative to building the pipeline is NOT building the pipeline, in which case we keep sending our money out of the country to provide jobs elsewhere at our expense.

Since we pay the bill to provide jobs either way, it only seems to make sense to me to provide jobs here. Worst case with loan guarantees, we might not get paid back(if they default). If we do not provide the loan guarantees, we continue to use petroleum. If we continue to use petroleum, we are guaranteed not being paid back any of the money spent(on petroleum).
Comment
2 of 46
January 22, 2010
Way to go Renewable Energy World, providing a one-sided view again! How about interviewing some of the skeptics as well? That's what this reporter from the State Journal-Register (Springfield, Illinois) did.

www.sj-r.com/business/x532582035/Tim-Landis-Developers-hope-to-build-ethanol-pipeline-through-Sangamon-County

Here is a salient quote:"[T]he project seems to be another effort to obtain federal subsidies for an already heavily subsidized industry."

If you were a heavily subsidized industry, what would be YOUR tactic? Mine would be to get the government financially involved as much as possible -- a loan guarantee is a good choice, because it looks to casual observers as if it costs the government nothing -- so as to lock in those subsidies. If a pipeline is built, it is virtually guaranteed that politicians will never let Midwest ethanol producers go bust. If they did, the loan is defaulted on, and the U.S. taxpayer picks up the tab. With interest.

So, what do I think? What do you think? Is this the kind of project we need to see in order to get the U.S. economy back on track?

Let's see first what a rational pattern of production and consumption would emerge if there were no barriers to imported ethanol. Look at the map (Figure 9) in this recent study of ethanol economics:

www.bakerinstitute.org/publications/EF-pub-BioFuelsWhitePaper-010510.pdf

It shows the "arbitrage line" -- the curve connecting all the points at which the cost of shipping ethanol from the Midwest equals the cost of importing ethanol from Brazil and shipping it inland. The line cuts across western New York State, western Pennsylvania, and the Appalachian mountain range further south. That is, for most of the northeast, all of the southeast, and all of the far west, it would make more sense to import.

In short, subsidizing a pipeline to transport subsidized ethanol would be throwing good money after bad.

Naturally, the proponents' job-creation figures look tantalizing. But corporations seeking government assistance on the basis of jobs never talk about the job destruction that would result from raising the money to pay the subsidies.
Comment
3 of 46
January 22, 2010
I got a better idea...no pipeline .If 4 BBBillion dollars would be spent on something like tanker trucks and trains that run on ethanol, we can have jobs building new trucks and truck drivers , and nice roads , while still making ethanol. And who says this ethanol can not be grown and produced locally , thus breaking our dependance on centralized refineries . Let's talk about too BIG to fail. These pipeline people are sooo greedy. Just look what chaos haliburton caused in Afghanistan with their pipeline which is burried under their only highway. Jobs Jobs now. Please?
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Comment
4 of 46
Anonymous
January 22, 2010
Ask T Boon Pickens how hard it is to get people to let him run a wind power line thru their state so people can have ernewable energy.
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Comment
5 of 46
Anonymous
January 22, 2010
Stephen , thanks for putting this article out there. Love ya dude.They got making ethanol down pat. Do you really think one operation should be allowed to control 36 billion gallons/year if that were possible? My calculator is smoking. The time will never be right to keep polluting the air by switching from petro to ethanol ...isn't there something better? natural gas perhaps? hybrid trucks ? NO to the pipeline..find a better way.
peace
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Comment
6 of 46
Anonymous
January 22, 2010
Does POET really use 3 gallons of water to make 1 gallon of ethanol? Well that's better than the 4 they used to use. oh ah ok when they boost production to 36b times 4 oh no there goes somebodys water . Better build 2 pipelines.
Comment
7 of 46
January 22, 2010
Good points all.

In this article, I was more interested in exploring how projects like this -- which quite obviously many people question -- are back on the table now that we're looking at new ways to create jobs.

Whether people think it's a good or bad idea, I think you'll hear more talk about this project in the not-so-distant future.
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Comment
8 of 46
Anonymous
January 22, 2010
"In this article, I was more interested in exploring how projects like this -- which quite obviously many people question -- are back on the table now that we're looking at new ways to create jobs."

Yes, but you guys at REW almost always only report the industry perspective. Use some critical judgement, man, or readers will dismiss you as just mere PR lackeys!
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Comment
9 of 46
Anonymous
January 22, 2010
Horrendous idea. We should spend that $4bn on pursuing near term drop in solutions like butanol that don't require a radical transformation of our energy infrastructure and possess hydrocarbon like qualities. Corn Ethanol is at best a near to medium term plug that's prominence has unfortunately been elongated by the farm belt lobby's omnipresence in our nation's decison maker's minds. We should be allocating our brainpower and manpower towards innovation, not perpetuating an unsustainable solution.
Comment
10 of 46
January 22, 2010
Why not first develop a viable ethanol industry before building pipelines? The government has already essentially outlawed new corn ethanol capacity with cellulose mandates, and cellulosic ethanol is far too costly.

Moreover, the US continues to block cane type ethanol (which has been successful in Brazil) by blocking the use of cellulose for electricity generation. The most recent issue of Power Engineering states cogeneration fueled by biomass wastes is blocked by government and utility monopolies, even though it is economic without subsidies
Comment
11 of 46
January 22, 2010
Let's block US farmers from getting their products to market. We don't need farmers anyway, we can depend on cheap foreign food.
Comment
12 of 46
January 22, 2010
Fred, who is talking about blocking US farmers from getting their products to market? POET and is partners are perfectly free to build such a pipeline with their own money.
Comment
13 of 46
January 22, 2010
Does corn ethanol for gas increase oil use and BIG oil profit, some folks think so. Clean Air Performance Professionals 510-537-1796
Comment
14 of 46
January 22, 2010
A random 'Smog Check' inspection & repair 'secret shopper' audit, ethanol cap and elimination of dual fuel CAFE credit can cut California car impact over 50% in 2010.(Prevent Over 2000 tons per day of sulfur, PM, HC, O3, NOx, CO & CO2.) Improved performance of AB32 at reduced cost. (support H.R. 1207)
Comment
15 of 46
January 22, 2010
* California Smog Check providers have been questioned about a Sierra Research 'Forty Nine Percent Refail Report' Reporting a possible 50% fraud rate, Smog Check providers fail millions of cars but Tom Cackette officer of CARB and Larry Sherwood & Dave Amlin B.A.R. may use the information to justify public policy but refuse to release the tax dollar funded report.

http://www.imreview.ca.gov/correspondence/governor_49percent_report_8.25.09.pdf
Comment
16 of 46
January 22, 2010
According to the new book "Comeback America" we each owe half a million dollars as part of our government's debt to foreign countries.

If this pipeline gets built it will be another monument to government incompetence.

A 10% blend limit was put in place to protect engines, fuel systems, pollution sensors, and catalytic converters. As we approach that legal limit, the corn ethanol lobby is working hard to force even more ethanol onto consumers by increasing this limit to 15% to feed an artificial market created for corporate lobbyists by our government.

In addition, plans are afoot to start exporting corn ethanol, probably with the blending subsidy. Ultimately, that is why they want this pipeline, which will greatly facilitate that scheme. With a pipeline to the coasts, the 10% blending limit can by bypassed with exports. So much for the energy independence canard.

The corn ethanol lobbyists are also presently suing California to bypass the fact that corn ethanol and soy biodiesel do not qualify as low carbon fuels.

Biodiesel lobbyists are about to get the third extension on the dollar per gallon blending subsidy, this time for five years:

http://biodiversivist.blogspot.com/2010/01/never-ending-biodiesel-subsidy.html

Welcome to the corporatocracy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatocracy
Comment
17 of 46
January 22, 2010
We looked into how to get to 90B gallons of ethanol by 2030 and found that a pipeline system wasn't the favored approach. Rather, the issue turned on the scale up of ethanol tank cars fleet (which can be done without much problem as we've done that before) AND the improvement to the US rail system pending congestion on the main lines. Since this upgrade has to occur anyway, the ability to roll more ethanol tank cars should not be a problem. Assurance that the main lines might get upgraded was improved when Warren Buffett bought a major railroad. Seems that he thinks that rail is in our future. So if rain is, so is ethanol by "other than pipeline".
Comment
18 of 46
January 22, 2010
Localized Production of Any BioFuel is How to Handle the Problem. Grow Algae, (Not Food), Harvest the Oil (Make Diesel/Aviation Fuel ), Brew Butanol (More Bang/Less Troublesome), Burn What's Left For Power. Clean Up Some Sewage, Suck Up The CO2 and Do It Again On Brownfield Sites in the North-East, Mid-West, California,etc.,etc.,ETC.,! Now That's Carbon Neutral, Be Bold!

And, That's Putting a Large Group of People to Work All Over the Country!
Comment
19 of 46
January 23, 2010
Keruth has the right perspective on this and that is to think local. When you do that you realize that smaller plants and many of them can be built. Now we can put modular cookie cutter plants throughout the county. We put Detroit back to work making power plants for communities as well as for cars.
Another point to think of when we bring energy production back home is the reduced need to "subsidize" the cost of gasoline with our military budget. This is an incredible tax that no one wants to bring out in the open. We should always insist that any cost comparison includes the hidden subsidies.
Comment
20 of 46
January 23, 2010
So, you are against the construction of an ethanol pipeline to carry an American product that is both a fuel and raw material feedstock for many other products, made by American workers, and destined to American consumers. You say that loan guarantees are too expensive, and that ethanol should only compete in a free market with petroleum.

But I don't hear anyone protesting the oil pipeline being constructed right now across Afgahnistan---at government expense. Both in money, logistical and military support. It is costing money AND lives. The cost of this pipeline and the war being fought to facilitate its building pocket change in comparison to the entire cost of the ethanol pipeline. Take a look, here is the REAL purpose of the war in Agahnistan-----to build an control a pipeline that will assure strategic control over oil reserves in Central Asia.

It is all laid out in testimony before the:

U.S. INTERESTS IN THE CENTRAL ASIAN REPUBLICS

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON
ASIA AND THE PACIFIC

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON
INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED FIFTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

FEBRUARY 12, 1998

by John Metrasca, VP international relations for UNOCAL. And this was being planned over 3 years before the attack on the WTC in 2001.

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/intlrel/hfa48119.000/hfa48119_0f.htm

(transcript of proceedings)

-----------"The second option is to build a pipeline south from Central Asia to the Indian Ocean. One obvious route south would cross Iran, but this is foreclosed for American companies because of U.S. sanctions legislation. The only other possible route is across Afghanistan, which has of course its own unique challenges. The country has been involved in bitter warfare for almost two decades, and is still divided by civil war. From the outset, we have made it clear that construction of the pipeline we have proposed across Afghanistan could not begin until a recognized government is in place that has the confidence of governments, lenders, and our company."-------------

So, are you wondering why the US can't seem to be able to get out of Afgahnistan?
Because they have NO intention of leaving, that is why. We are there for oil.
Comment
21 of 46
January 23, 2010
Fred, your link is to a transcript from February 1998 -- 12 years ago! Since then, there was 9/11, remember? Now, maybe even that was a pretext. Who knows? But if you are going to build a case for a conspiracy theory, you're going to need to provide more complete, and more recent information.

Would people here be against subsidizing an oil pipeline in Afghanistan? I should think so. But, by your reasoning, the fact that there may be oil pipelines in other countries being subsidized justifies the United States subsidizing an ethanol pipeline.

Read what other people have written. Not all of the comments are anti-ethanol. But most of the comments argue that, given its cost and other potential uses of the money (and other means of improving the transportation of ethanol), subsidizing a dedicated ethanol pipeline from the Midwest to the U.S. East Coast would not be a good idea.

Yet you seem to start from the position that whatever the biofuels industry (or at least its major players) asks for, they should be given it.

That is not the way debates on public policy should be approached.
Comment
22 of 46
January 23, 2010
Corn ethanol is reported to have a lousy EROI

If EROI less than 1 ( as I suspect ) don't bother to build a pipeline to help the industry destroy more energy.
if EROI greater than 1 - use it in 100% ethanol vehicles ( bought from Brazil if the US cant make them) local to the producers and save the pipeline money. You get the same savings in carbon emissions from 1 100% vehicle as from 10 10% vehicles.
.
Comment
23 of 46
January 23, 2010
Political decisions are not being made for the greater good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHwk6yurrxk
Comment
24 of 46
January 23, 2010
Ron---------"Fred, your link is to a transcript from February 1998 -- 12 years ago! Since then, there was 9/11, remember? "----------------

That is the point Ron, it is all there, objectives, strategy, tactics----all laid out. And it can go back further than that. We can go back to the first Iraq war. There is no question that oil was the underlying factor in that conflict.

---------"But, by your reasoning, the fact that there may be oil pipelines in other countries being subsidized justifies the United States subsidizing an ethanol pipeline."---------

Not quite Ron. I see the invasion, occupation and attempted political subjugation of Afghanistan and Iraq by the US government as pure puppet manipulation of the US government by big oil.

Russ---------"Political decisions are not being made for the greater good:"-----------

Politics is the present day "Circus Maximus" meant to confuse, mislead and entertain the masses. The manipulators are changing hats and playing all the roles.
I agree 100% with what is being said in the link you provided. I am looking at things from just a little different perspective however. I think instead of "too big to fail", I think we should be saying "too big". I want some economic competition as well. I want biofuels to be a viable choice. Both you and Ron oppose corn ethanol. OK, we can make ethanol from other sources----I have no problem with limiting the amount of ethanol made from corn. But I still think ethanol is a good choice, we just need to make it from other sources.

Methane is also a good choice. I think we should have bi-fuel engine vehicles that can run on several different fuel sources. Ethanol would just be one. Give the choice to consumers.

So, if we had a mandate that all new vehicles sold in the US should be flex-fuel or diesel bi-fuel capable instead of loan guarantees on an ethanol pipeline, I'd go along with that. Giving consumers the choice of using petroleum, biofuels, or natural gas, or any mix of the three seems the best way to go to me. Because, if consumers have the choice of several different options, the petroleum monopoly will disappear. That is what I want to happen, stop the petroleum monopoly strangle hold on the world market. Give people choices.
Comment
25 of 46
January 26, 2010
The Title is a horrible thought !
I hope an ethanol pipeline is NOT coming to a city near me ! It is a waste of taxpayers dollars, time and energy. Yes, the production of ethanol or butanol from the corn waste IS NOT energy efficient. In addition, we do not have sufficient agricultural waste to power all of the U.S. autos anyway ! When you burn ethanol in the engine, it still forms carbon dioxide or did you not know ! ?
Fuel cell hydrogen autos are better for the environment. The hydrogen can be produced cheaply at the refueling station site from solar energy and DOES NOT need to be transported by truck, pipeline, etc.
Comment
26 of 46
January 26, 2010
Ethanol is extremely soluble ("miscible") in water. Go to a bar and order "scotch & water"; it does not separate into two layers.

Since ethanol absorbs water it enhances rust, aka corrosion, everywhere it travels. Gasoline does not absorb water, so wherever the water accumulates, it can be drained from the bottoms, hence not allowing corrosion.

Corroded pipelines fail, causing environmentally damaging spills and expensive loss of product.
Comment
27 of 46
January 26, 2010
-----------"Yes, the production of ethanol or butanol from the corn waste IS NOT energy efficient. "----------

Not using waste is inefficient.

-------"we do not have sufficient agricultural waste to power all of the U.S. autos anyway !"-----------

We don't have to. Bifuel engine vehicles can use both liquids and gases as fuels.

http://green.autoblog.com/2007/08/28/fiat-siena-tetrafuel-can-run-on-four-fuel-types/

---------"When you burn ethanol in the engine, it still forms carbon dioxide or did you not know ! ?"------------------

The carbon produced was first removed from the atmosphere by the plants that the biofuel was made from. Burning the biofuel simply returns the CO2 to the atmosphere where plants again recycle it over and over. If we did not use it as a fuel, the plants would decompose or burn and the CO2 returns to the atmosphere anyway. Digging up petroleum or coal out of the ground and burning it is the only way to add new carbon to the bioshere.

--------"Ethanol is extremely soluble ("miscible") in water. Go to a bar and order "scotch & water"; it does not separate into two layers."-----------

That is good. That is how we get water out of petroleum storage tanks that have become contaminated. We pour in enough alcohol to dilute the water and carry it out of suspension.

------------"Since ethanol absorbs water it enhances rust, aka corrosion, everywhere it travels."-----------

That is why you use pipes and fittings that are not subject to corrosion.

---------"Corroded pipelines fail, causing environmentally damaging spills and expensive loss of product."---------------

Take a gallon of ethanol, and a gallon of diesel fuel, and pour both of them on seperate places in your yard. Then run a hose of both of them for a couple of minutes. You will only have one patch where the grass dies, where the diesel fuel was poured. The grass will not grow there for a very long time to come. The water will dilute and carry the ethanol away----it will only make the dead patch from the diesel fuel larger. That is why the fact that alcohol is hydroscopic is good.
Comment
28 of 46
January 26, 2010
lets do not forget that should E85 expand to 10 -20 % of our gas stations(will be 30 000 instead of less than 3000 we have today of 160 000 nationwide)and ethanol mix in gasoline go to 20 or 25% ,a real market will be created ,displacing a lot of imported gas and oil ,thus stimulating new feedstcks for ethanol ,like sweet sorghum(can be grown all over the country ,takes 8 times less water than corn and yields 8 times more ethanol) and sugarcane and sweet potatoes in the south( 8 times better ethanol yields than corn)
So thant will also create a lot of new American job,for the destilleries ,harvesters ,and such
very profitable business for a not very profitable goverment if they decide to act on it finally and not just talk about it like Mr Bush did for so manny years
Comment
29 of 46
January 27, 2010
I did not read all the posts, I don't know if this is redundant. This pipeline is a bad idea. The key to keeping efficiency in the ethanol chain, from the ground to the wheel, is to keep the production regional. If trucks are carrying gasoline from depot to filling station, and ethanol can cut the truck travel to a similar distance, then it has an advantage of not being transported three times. Likewise centralization will require shipping feedstock to one location.

Economically, it is a bad idea, because federal involvement of this kind will only build an asset for the oil industry to absorb later, when 'gasoline' becomes 20, 30, or 60% biomass. This will stifle competition and innovation, and hand the playing field to the first player to pony up the cash to buy some politicians.

It is a bad PR move for the industry, which is accused of being run strictly for the subsidy money. I know that petroleum gets subsidies, and about the Afghan conflict being partially about access to Caspian sea oil and gas, but to win a PRopaganda game against a better funded, larger, more experienced opponent, the ethanol industry needs to prove it can do the job without the dirty tricks, to take the high road in every way possible. We've all heard the 'Neuwz' about how ADM is the beneficiary of most federal ethanol $$, if POET gets a pipeline, there will be more mud for the other side to sling.

Lastly, job creation. One big federal project at this time will not be like the Hoover Dam. This would be a handout to a few pipeline contractors, in one long but narrow region.

Using the same money to promote local [even municipal, from yard waste] production of bio-fuels, and a comprehensive politico-legal plan that allows retail gas stations to sell whatever fuel they can get from whichever producer, as long as it meets requirements for fuel type. That should be simple anti-trust; anti-collusion policy, but it is amazing how often it doesn't work.

The whole system needs work, replacing one part of it only keeps a broken system operative longer than it should be. Producing ethanol like gasoline is what this amounts to, the same old system.
Comment
30 of 46
January 27, 2010
I can't possibly respond to all the comments on this post, but there was one I have to address that ran throughout the section. Here's a representative sentence from Ron:

"POET and is [SIC] partners are perfectly free to build such a pipeline with their own money."

The plan is for the partners to spend their own money. The venture is seeking to have the pipeline qualify for an existing federal loan guarantee program (not federal dollars) because lenders are unlikely to fund something this large and unique. It's no different than the federal loan guarantee that was given to the Alaskan natural gas pipeline.
Comment
31 of 46
January 27, 2010
---------"It's no different than the federal loan guarantee that was given to the Alaskan natural gas pipeline."--------------

The Alaska Pipeline carries petroleum, not natural gas. But you are right Nathan.

It is also no different that federal loan guarantees to secure loans to buy or build housing such as HUD, or VA.

Small Business Administration loan guarantees and student loans also work the same way.

In fact, federal government involve might be preferable. ICC has regulatory control over systems built with government involvement such as roads, shipping channels, airports, port and dock facillities, railroads etc. This is an important part of regulation and elimination of predatory business competition practices by cartels and monopolies. Look at the history of Standard Oil under John D. Rockefeller for the perfect example. The single most glaring abuses of power that led to the entire Progressive Movement and Teddy Roosevelt's initial moves to break the monopolies were Standard Oil's attempts to gain unfair control of railroads and shipping in order to lock out competitors from being able to compete. There can't be any competition if your competitors can't get their goods to market.

If we don't learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it. History should teach us that "Free Market Capitalism" is only free when the government is there to referee and make sure that all the players follow the rules. Let's not forget that the petroleum industry was the one that wrote the book on unfair monopolistic business practice----at the expense of consumers.
Comment
32 of 46
January 27, 2010
Nathan, are you referring to the proposed provisions in a bill to provide a federal loan guarantee to finance and build an Alaska natural gas pipeline project? Has that actually been finally approved?

Several points need to be born in mind, besides that two bad policies don't make a good one. The first is that loan guarantees are not cost free. If they were, then we might as well have the government provide them on all loans. There is always the risk of default, and the more such guarantees the government provides, the higer the risk premium required on government borrowing. And clearly there is a benefit to the recipient -- in the form of a lower cost of capital -- else why go through the trouble of asking for the guarantee?

But you seem to have missed what I think is the real nub of the matter in this case: the government would be guaranteeing a project that would have one sole purpose: to transport a subsidized product in reverse of the direction that would make sense in the absence of those subsidies and of trade protection. That means that the government would have a vested interest in maintaining those subsidies and import tariffs, lest they undermine the economic viability of the companies whose massive loans they are guaranteeing. Not a healthy situation to be in for a loan guaranteer.
Comment
33 of 46
January 27, 2010
Ron,

Increasing the use of renewable fuels is the stated policy of this country. Congress and the President made that clear in the Energy Independence & Security Act of 2007 that included the Renewable Fuel Standard. If our country is going to use the 36 billion gallons of renewable biofuel mandated by that law, you need things like pipelines, blender pumps and FFVs.

I think the real nub of the matter is that you don't like the country's policy on biofuels. That's fine and I respect your opinion. My company is one of hundreds that are busy trying to implement it and we believe a pipeline is a necessary component. We believe in it enough to risk our own capital but debt financing is another issue and that's where we need the government loan guarantee. I understand that it's not cost or risk free for the government, but it isn't for us either.
Comment
34 of 46
January 27, 2010
---------"The first is that loan guarantees are not cost free."-----------

No, but the cost would be chicken feed compared to the cost of maintaining a war time military fighting wars on two fronts to benefit an industry that gaurantees reliance on foreign energy sources, fosters recession and unemployment and undermines the value of our currency. It also promotes political destablization and hands over power to terrorists on a silver platter.

--------"then we might as well have the government provide them on all loans."----------

We already have a long track record of providing loan guarantees to promote all sorts of social benefits from housing ownership, educational opportunities, small and large business investment, even car purchases and bank deposits. The track record of accomplishing the goals that they were intended to foster is excellent.

--------"And clearly there is a benefit to the recipient -- in the form of a lower cost of capital -- else why go through the trouble of asking for the guarantee?"------------

The benefit accrues mainly to investors, in the form of lower risk. If the recipients default, they are foreclosed and the investors are reimbursed.
Comment
35 of 46
January 27, 2010
"Increasing the use of renewable fuels is the stated policy of this country." Ah, OK, so end of story I guess? End of debate, the decision never to be revisited again? So, whatever the industry asks for, Congress should roll over and say "Yes"?

"If our country is going to use the 36 billion gallons of renewable biofuel mandated by that law, you need things like pipelines, blender pumps and FFVs." You are forgetting, or ignorring, the possibility of imports, for one. (Please check out the graphic in the study I linked to,) And the pipeline will be serving mainly the upper Midwest, which means mainly corn ethanol (perhaps augmented by a small amount of corn-cob or corn-stover ethanol).

Most of the growth beyond the capacity the nation already has to produce ethanol is supposed to be in cellulosic ethanol -- made from wood waste, MSW, etc. That implies more plants distributed OUTSIDE the area proposed for the pipeline. Numerous other readers have made that point on this string.

Thank you, at least, for declaring your vested interest in the pipeline being built -- and supported by the government.
Comment
36 of 46
January 27, 2010
Trees grow in the upper midwest. Quite a lot of them. Wisconsin was the sight of an ethanol plant that produced ethanol during WW2 that was used as the basic feedstock for artificial rubber, a vital material to the war effort.

Switch grass also grows quite will in the midwest. Switch grass is a native grass that comprised much of the original praire flora. There is an agricultural movement going on now to restore native praire flora and fauna as agricultural commidities. Instead of corn and cattle---restore what the praires originally evolved to sustain a flourishing biosphere----grasses, such as switchgrass and blue stem, and buffalo.
Comment
37 of 46
January 27, 2010
Ron,
What I'm saying is that if the government is in favor of using more renewable fuels, you shouldn't be surprised if they take steps to give more Americans have access to them. Your argument was that the government shouldn't back an ethanol pipeline because it will make it more difficult to end support for bioufels. Again, if you don't support biofuels (like you), you won't support a pipeline. If you do (like the government) it's possible that you might.
Comment
38 of 46
January 27, 2010
"Switch grass also grows quite will in the midwest. Switch grass is a native grass that comprised much of the original praire flora."

And numerous studies have shown that, wherever corn is currently grown, farmers would not switch to growing switchgrass without a substantial subsidy.
Comment
39 of 46
January 28, 2010
Government subsidies got the transcontinental railroad built. That didn't work out too badly.
Comment
40 of 46
January 28, 2010
Fred, your last comment -- which seems to justify one subsidy because another subsidy "worked out" (if the only criterion for determining that it "worked out" is that it was generous enough to accomplish a specific goal: get the thing built) -- falls below even your own standards of commentary. So, because government subsidies got the transcontinental railroad built, does that mean that we should happy for governments to subsidize fossil fuel production, bridges to nowhere, the depletion of fossil aquifers? Why don't we just turn the whole economy over to the government, comrade?
Comment
41 of 46
January 28, 2010
Even Thomas Jefferson, the severest critic of big government among the founding fathers, the man who wrote the Declaration of Independence, was in favor of government subsidies.

In order to facilitate the movement of US goods on the Mississippi River without foreign interference he sent Robert Livingston and later John Jay France to negotiate free trade on the Mississippi and port facilities in New Orleans. Due to the military situation at the time, (which was largely set by the recent slave revolt and independence in Haiti) Napoleon was ready to sell the entire Louisiana territory.

The Federalist party----Jefferson's political rivals, bitterly attacked the sale and tried their best to block the sale. They favored closer ties to Great Britain. The Louisiana Purchase passed by just 2 votes. For just $15 Million Jefferson doubled the size of the United States and extended the borders of the US from the Mississippi to the Rocky Mountains(at a cost of about 3 cents per acre).

Great Britain later attacked and invaded the United States in the War of 1812. Great Britain only gave up plans to reconquer the United States after the Battle of New Orleans.

Not bad for a government subsidy to provide a secure trade route for US goods.

I'm sure the French would love to get Louisiana back because it was bought with subsidy money.

So, if we don't provide a means of transporting ethanol to areas where it is needed as fuel and chemical feedstock, we will remain dependent on foreign petroleum and the whims of Middle Eastern politics, warfare, piracy, terrorism and revolution. That is a prospect that does not provide for a very secure future for the US.

Therefore, I can only conclude that your entire rant on subsidies is directed and intended to maintain the status quo dependence on petroleum with all of the attendent economic, social and political damage it is causing. I prefer to see the US free of the need for petroleum, comrade.
Comment
42 of 46
January 28, 2010
As usual, Fred, you take another person's stance on a specific subsidy, twist it and interpret it as: (a) opposition to any subsidies; and (2) support of the status quo. None of those conclusions are supported by my comments,

On the specific issue of railroad subsidies, there is a rich literature asking the question: Did the railroads actually make that much of a difference to the economy of the United States? In 1964, one of America's most respected economists, Robert Fogel (U. of Chicago), set out to answer exactly that question. To quote this summary (www.csiss.org/classics/content/19):

"Fogel believed that much of the praise heaped on the economic contributions of the railroad were little more than overblown rhetoric, and he set out to prove it. In his 1964 book, Railroads and American Economic Growth, Fogel examined the American economy for the year 1890 from two different vantage points. The first looked at the economy, specifically agricultural transports of the key staple commodities of wheat, corn, pork, and beef, as it actually existed in 1890. The second assumed that, all else being equal, railroads had never been invented, and that the 1890 economy was faced with alternate modes of transport, such as canals and the traditional horse-drawn wagon. The difference between the costs of transport in these two scenarios, or rather the amount of money the railroads actually saved, was termed the "social savings." ... Fogel concluded that the social savings from interregional railroad transport was far less than had been assumed—less than 1% of the economy as a whole—even including factors such as frozen canals in winter and the circuitous route of many waterways. It was in the area of INTRA-regional distribution that Fogel found the greatest advantage for the railroad. ... Yet, even here, Fogel believed the railroad's advantage was illusory. He advanced the idea that, in the absence of the railroad, the modern combustion engine (i.e., cars and trucks) likely would have been developed much more rapidly and could have replaced the horse-drawn wagon decades before the end of the nineteenth century. If nothing else, at least rural roads might have been improved sooner."

Note two things here: Fogel not only looked at the counterfactual of no subsidies, he looked at the counterfactual of no railroads! The second is that there are many ways to solve transport problems. That suggests that governments should think twice about weighing in on one solution over another. (Again, I suggest that you read what some of the other people have said here about alternatives to a pipeline.)
Comment
43 of 46
January 29, 2010
-----------"He advanced the idea that, in the absence of the railroad, the modern combustion engine (i.e., cars and trucks) likely would have been developed much more rapidly and could have replaced the horse-drawn wagon decades before the end of the nineteenth century. If nothing else, at least rural roads might have been improved sooner."--------------

Nicholas Otto invented the spark fired IC engine in 1888. Rudolf Diesel's first engine ran in 1893.
The first transcontinental highway, the Lincoln Highway opened in 1919, 30 years later. By 1964, we were 8 years into building the Interstate Highway system, and everyone was convinced that railroads were dead.
Well, 45 years later, we still have railroads.
I don't see how it would have even been possible for automobiles to have developed any faster than they did.

---------"the modern combustion engine (i.e., cars and trucks) likely would have been developed much more rapidly and could have replaced the horse-drawn wagon decades before the end of the nineteenth century."------------

That would have been pretty difficult since internal combustion engines were not even invented until the last decade of the 19th Century.

Fogel was not much of a historian if you ask me.

Not much of an economist either, it was railroads that made the industrial revolution possible.
Comment
44 of 46
January 29, 2010
"Fogel was not much of a historian if you ask me."

Actually, he knew more about the history of the development of combustion engines than you seem to, Fred. Otto's and Diesel's inventions did not spring out of nowhere: they were improvements on previous designs and experiments, and drew heavily on previous experience with steam engines, which had been invented decades earlier. By the late 1850s, numerous inventors were working to develop internal combustion engines. The first one able to provide a reliable and continuous source of power was invented in 1860 by a Belgian, Jean Joseph Etienne Lenoir, then working in France. It used coal gas as its fuel.

Early ignition systems were rather primitive, however, which then became the focus of other pioneers. By 1864, Siegfried Marcus, in Austria, had already created an engine that used petrol as a fuel.

Fogel's point is, essentially, no different than Franklin's: that necessity is the mother of invention. There is not a set speed for invention. It can slow down or accelerates, but in unpredictable ways. A crucial role of government is to get the signals right. In the case of transport fuels, that means incorporating their social costs ("externalities") into the price of fuels. We know what the "bads" are (pollution and GHG emissions), but we are much less sure what the winners will be in the race among innovators (including innovations in city planning and communications), so the standard policy prescription is charge for the "bads" instead of trying to second-guess what the "good" things are going to be.
Comment
45 of 46
January 29, 2010
Yes, you are right, inventions very seldom spring out of nowhere. They are usually built on previous work.

I looked up Lenoir (which included references to others work). From the narratives, it is no wonder that they were not successful. It was an interesting read though.

Thanks.
Comment
46 of 46
January 30, 2010
Clean Air Performance Professionals


Friday, January 29, 2010
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814
Phone: 916-445-2841
Fax: 916-558-3160 ( new number )
C/o Lisa

RE: Sierra Research Report SR 2007-04-01

Dear Mr. Governor

California Air Resources Board (CARB) and The Department of Consumer Affairs/ Bureau of Automotive Repair DCA/BAR have contracted with Sierra Research for a Report of Smog Check performance.

Sierra has informed me the report was final in March 2009 and released to CARB.

CARB, BAR, IMRC, and the California Legislature are using the Report for public policy but refusing to release the publicly funded Report.

Mr. Governor, I'm confused, can you refer me to someone who might help?

Cc to interested parties

From: Charlie Peters
Clean Air Performance Professionals
cappcharlie@earthlink.net
(510) 537-1796 - fax: (510) 537-9675

CAPP contact: Charlie Peters (510) 537-1796 cappcharlie@earthlink.net
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Stephen Lacey

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About: I am a reporter with ClimateProgress.org, a blog published by the Center for American Progress. I am former editor and producer for RenewableEnergyWorld.com, wh... more »

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