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September 2, 2008

The Elephant Under the Rug: Denial and Failed Energy Projects

At the World Renewable Energy Conference in Glasgow I recently witnessed the strange phenomenon of group denial first hand. After a paper about hydrogen-fueled cars, some embarrassing questions were asked about the practicalities of storing and delivering hydrogen to the cars. The questions were dismissed and the questioners meekly backed down. I wanted to jump in and set them straight but keenly felt the group pressure to not ruin the party. I couldn't do it!

Groupthink is a strange phenomenon resulting from our deep genetic programming as herd animals: If our peer group is ignoring the giant lump in the living room rug, we will naturally imitate their behavior and walk around the elephant hidden there. We tend to be drawn into a sort of mass hallucination where everyone conforms to an unspoken agreement to ignore the inconvenient but obvious truth. We walk around the lump without consciously seeing it.

Group denial can be dangerous. The housing bubble and the dotcom bubble are recent disastrous examples. The loan officers, realtors, journalists, investment bankers and regulators that caused the housing bubble were all blind to the developing problem as they rationalized and convinced themselves that every thing was OK. It is now painfully clear that they were unconsciously caught up in a fantasy world of denial. When you're making lots of money, it's natural to think that you must be brilliant. Your peer group supports you and nobody wants to spoil the party. It's not intentional, just human nature.

I learned a lot about group denial eight years ago when I lost millions on dotcom stocks. It seemed so certain that those hot stocks would regain their past glory. I was drawn deeply into dotcom denial. There were voices speaking the truth then, but my peer group and I kept the faith and laughed together at them.

U.S. energy policy has developed several similar delusions where people are still getting rich pursuing failed projects that should have been abandoned years ago. Mare than half of our US $4 billion DOE science budget is being spent to keep alive failed programs. Saving face and saving contracts has made denial the order of the day. Billions in subsidy money finance a war chest for lobbying that keeps these programs alive.

Let's look closer at the denial of fatal flaws in three major DOE programs where money is being spent recklessly and entire industries, government agencies and journalists are in group denial:

The Hydrogen Initiative: US $246 million 2009 budget

Honda now has a few beautiful, finished-looking, FCX hydrogen cars on the road. But wait! How do we produce and distribute the hydrogen that runs them? The tanker trucks that replenish gasoline stations can carry about 300 fill-ups. However, hydrogen takes up much more space and requires high-pressure cylinders that weigh 65 times as much as the hydrogen they contain! One giant 13 ton hydrogen delivery truck can carry only about 10 fill-ups! By ignoring this fatal flaw in the hydrogen economy idea we have created the illusion of success that is grossly inefficient compared to electric cars. Well-to-wheel efficiency analysis of the Honda FCX shows that the Tesla pure electric car is 3X more efficient and produces 1/3 the CO2 emissions!

Group denial makes us ignore obvious but inconvenient truths like the inherent inefficiency of the hydrogen economy. It was overlooked when the project was conceived, which is forgivable, but now denial makes us overlook it when we should know better. Batteries charged from the grid are clearly a better way to go; yet the DOE budget for battery development is less than one-fifth of the hydrogen budget.

Electrical distribution for overnight recharging is already installed in virtually every home that has a car. Batteries can store and retrieve that electricity with 95% efficiency to drive motors that are 90% efficient. Hydrogen would require a whole new fueling infrastructure. But why bother? It can't begin to compete with electricity because the efficiency of producing, transporting, storing and then converting hydrogen to electricity with a fuel cell is pathetic by comparison.

When I have a writing deadline it gives me great energy for fixing things around the house to avoid facing the real problem. That's exactly what we have done in the hydrogen initiative. We had great fun creating a nifty looking car. Now if we could just figure out a way to get fuel to it that is competitive with charging a battery we would really have something.

Nuclear Power: US $1.4 Billion 2009 budget, $44 billion spent so far

The heavily subsidized nuclear industry died in 1979 when the Three-mile island and Chernobyl accidents made it painfully clear that the radioactive substances used were just too dangerous to be spread all over the map. Both accidents could have been much worse had a real meltdown occurred.

Denial has become easier today as memories fade it is much easier to pretend there is no problem and get on board the "nuclear renaissance." It's very similar to the recent housing bubble (renaissance), which was only possible because memories of the previous housing bubble that burst in 1990 had faded. The federal government bailout from our housing bubble may cost a trillion dollars before we are through. Amazingly, the "nuclear renaissance" is built on the promise of a similar bailout included in the 2005 energy bill: Nuclear accidents will have a maximum liability to the builder of only US $10.9 billion. If there is a meltdown, taxpayers have been generously volunteered to pay for any excess damages! Sandia estimated that damages could reach US $600 billion but we are optimistic because our memories have faded since the last disaster.

The 9/11 attacks showed us how easily a meltdown could be arranged by a well-aimed terrorist-hijacked airliner crash. In fact, if you're a terrorist, the possibilities with nuclear fuel and waste stored all over the map will be endless. The "nuclear renaissance" will be a bonanza for terrorists.

A Safe Way to Harness Nuclear Power

Nuclear elements in the earth are continually decaying, producing so much heat that the core of the earth is about 6000°C, hotter than the surface of the sun. In fact, 99.9% of the earth's volume is hot enough to boil water. We can generate all the electric power we need from that heat by simply drilling through the earth's crust and using water to carry the underground heat up to turbine generators on the earth's surface. This way we leave the dangerous radioactive elements where they are and simply use the heat they naturally generate to run our power plants.

This may sound like an impossible dream, but it is already being done profitably, producing 10 gigawatts of electricity worldwide at costs competitive with coal. It is called geothermal power generation. The source of heat in geothermal power is the decay of uranium and thorium in rocks safely sequestered underground. It is crazy is to dig these dangerous elements out, concentrate them and ship them to dangerous reactors just to boil water to run generators.

With geothermal power we boil the water by sending it down a well to the hot rocks. Steam comes out of a second well nearby and drives a turbine generator. Simple and safe! The steam is condensed and recycled, so water consumption is minimal. No pollution no dangerous waste and no fuel cost. What's the catch? Geothermal power is as cheap as coal in areas where the earth's crust is thin but drilling costs currently make it too expensive in most parts of the world. A breakthrough in drilling technology could make it practical everywhere.

Geothermal drilling is expensive mainly because we are using technology developed for oil exploration. Geothermal power requires deeper, larger holes, often through hard rock. If just 5% of the US $70 billion in federal money already lavished on nuclear power had been spent on drilling technology, we could have geothermal power virtually anywhere today. Hydrothermal spalling technology is capable of drilling five times faster through hard rock but zero federal money is available for its development. Google recently made a US $11 million investment in this technology.

No new nuclear power plants have been built in thirty years. The few plants now under construction are years behind schedule and billions over budget. Any plants in planning today will not be complete until at least 2020 and will be very expensive. With an aggressive drilling research program geothermal plants could fill our baseload power needs much sooner and at lower cost.

Clean Coal Technology: US $754 million 2009 budget

Coal power generation began a steep decline in 1983 when the horrendous pollution problems it was creating became impossible to ignore. Memories fade so denial has created a "renaissance" in coal spurred by a marvelous invention called "clean coal." This oxymoron doesn't actually exist but sounds like just the thing for solving our energy problems.

The problem is that "clean coal" will never be economical because when we burn coal each carbon atom joins with two oxygen atoms so every ton of coal we burn produces 3.7 tons of CO2! That currently amounts to nearly 10 billion tons of CO2 per year! One of the research projects budgeted for 2009 will try to sequester one million tons of CO2 per year. That's a mere fraction of the amount we need to hide! It's only 5% of what a single large power plant can produce.

Denial allows us to ignore this as a minor detail that can be worked out later. In reality the whole idea is clearly flawed and not economical. The "clean coal" initiative is a crash program to rescue a powerful industry, not a credible attempt to solve our energy problems. If we spent even a fraction of the money wasted on this boondoggle to develop advanced geothermal drilling technology we could quickly solve our energy problems and put a stop to the terrible environmental destruction being wreaked by coal.

Our energy policymaking has been hijacked by the coal and nuclear industries. They have sabotaged appropriations that have real potential for solving our energy problems and directed vast billions instead to keeping their dying industries alive. Technology could solve our energy and pollution problems if we could just free ourselves from the political stranglehold of these heavily subsidized industries.

Thomas R. Blakeslee is president of The Clearlight Foundation, a non-profit organization that invests in renewable energy and other socially useful companies and issues cash grants to individuals who are working effectively for change.



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Reader Comments (113)
 
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September 2, 2008
I really enjoyed reading this article. You hit the right chord again and again.

The collective denial instinct is so true and obvious. It is always fostered by a common vested interest.

It is just as dangerous for the general public in the hands of the renewables community, as it is in the hands of the oil, nuclear and mining communities.

Bravo... Keep on calling out them Elephants. Keep us all honest.
Comment 1 of 113
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September 2, 2008
Thank you for pointing out the grim mathematics of hydrogen fueling of transportation. I'd point out, however, that hydrogen has a more realistic future as an on-site means of storage for intermittent electricity produced by wind farms and solar plants. Obviously, there's an energy loss in the electrolysis conversion, but the benefits of being able to store even part of the intermittent output of renewable sources may make it practical. More hydrogen research along these lines should be pursued. I believe this is a signifcant part of NREL's H2 research.

Kudos also for your appreciation of under-valued geothermal energy. Far more needs to be done in the EGS area.

Clean coal is a lie. Don't bother looking at the claims of the coal industry. Look at the google satellite map of West Virginia and it is easy to spot the mountaintop removal operations...looks like the state has broken out in skin cancer. It's a monstrous gift to future generations.

I think nuclear deserves a little more credit, although it has its own problems. We do not have Chernobyl style reactors in the US, and our reactors actually have containment structures, so I am less concerned about plants exploding. I'd be willing to tolerate several more nuke plants if it would retire coal plants, until mid century when fusion plants could start appearing. I believe that coal is far worse than nuclear. It is possible to get uranium from seawater instead of mines in Utah; it's just more expensive. That is something that has been forgotten by the policymakers.

Our reliance on coal has inflicted a dozen Chernobyl's worth of premature deaths, cancer, pollution and environmental destruction upon the eastern US; it's just happened over a hundred years and spread out over a much larger area.

The best option for us right now is an Apollo program of thermal solar mega plants in the desert southwest. The Bush regime has had numerous applications for years and not approved a single one for BLM land.
Comment 2 of 113
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September 2, 2008
Excellent article. It's expecially interesting in light of the presidential race and the energy platforms being advocated by McCain and Obama. I don't think either camp is debunking the denial, so to speak.

Re: the comment,
"The best option for us right now is an Apollo program of thermal solar mega plants in the desert southwest. The Bush regime has had numerous applications for years and not approved a single one for BLM land."

That's great for the Southwest but how does that help the parts of the country or parts of the world where the sun doesn't shine as it does there? Power transmission would be an issue, no?
Comment 3 of 113
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September 2, 2008
Mr. Blakeslee certainly has it right about denial and how self-interest and vested-interest amplifies it. He may need to be careful not to fall into the same trap. Those super hot underground areas also contain many diverse, minerals and chemicals. As he points out, radioactive substances are among them. Many of these materials are water soluable. Many of them will combine predictably into unpredictable concoctions that will then be brought to the surface with the steam. I am not saying that Geothermal should not be utilized, but that its toxic potentialities must not become the new elephant under the rug. We are truly on dangerous ground when our marketing instincts overcome our survival instincts!
Comment 4 of 113
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September 2, 2008
The "fatal flaw" in the hydrogen delivery system you present is a red herring. An effective H2 system generates energy with renewables such as wind or solar, and distributes it as electricity over the existing electrical grid. It generates H2 and O2 on-site as needed; at existing gas stations; and by electrolysis. The ideal vehicle is a hybrid, powered by a Hydrogen-Oxygen IC engine. This proposed Hydrogen Highway system is completely pollution free.
Comment 5 of 113
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September 2, 2008
To Glenn Snyder:

A large intitative to provide utility-scale solar power plants to California would take decades just to offset California's consumption of natural gas for power, as well as the huge amount of electricity it imports from other states. So, expanding solar powered electricity generation in California would free up a huge amount of natural gas to be used almost anywhere else in the country. What we are starting to see now is that RPS-driven renewable energy demand from California is taking over the output of wind, solar and geothermal projects proposed for Oregon, Nevada, and Washington...which has negative long-term political consequences for renewable energy. People in those other states have to look at unsightly wind turbines, etc, which benefit California and not them. This is going to become a problem.
Comment 6 of 113
September 2, 2008
Hi all:

Now, if a condensed version of this story could be spoken by a sexy newscaster on a major broadcast network evening news, rather than just preaching to the choir, it might begin to make a difference...

Good article though...

.....Bill
Comment 7 of 113
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September 2, 2008
denial? by whom?
I respect everyone, but pardon my shouting so i can be heard over the grinding of axes....would the author care to explain how he would meltdown a Pebble Bed Reactor? Like the ones China is building with alacrity even now? And isnt France lucky that they didnt follow the herd with their 80% generation of electricity with nuclear? Did I mention Thorium reactors have NO weapons grade potential and their waste fizzles out in 500 -not 10,000- years?
Clean coal means Methanation, not burning in the usual smokestack way...very bad indeed! Great Point Energy has a process that turns coal (are you listening Illinois? WV?) into methane aka 'natural gas' for heating etc. and captures much of the CO2 as well.
Look at Solazyme....a non-photosynthesis algae diesel fermentation process that males a batch in 5...days, not 6-8 weeks! If anyone has hijacked us it is the Ethanol pirates, a fuel of dubious value vis-a-vis near any existing fuel....I do respect all opinions but I hope you see there is more than on side to these stories....
Comment 8 of 113
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September 2, 2008
It is a good article, even if its points are made to seem slightly extremist.

BJ, even methanization of coal has lots of carbon emissions. If the environment is on your shortlist of priorities when it comes to energy, as it is on mine, then you can't take the idea of "clean coal" seriously. And as for nuclear, 500 years is still an unreasonable amount of time to deal with waste. Can you imagine going to the bank and getting a 500 year loan for a property? or how about amortizing an investment for 500 years?

That said, it's ridiculous opinions like yours that make this interesting.
Comment 9 of 113
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September 2, 2008
Your article seems simplistic in it's science. It's more politikal then actual science.

Nuclear power in the 1970's used fuel rods. They don't use fuel rods anymore in modern Nuclear power. They use a pellet feed technology,
almost like a pellet wood stove. So your out of date on that buddy.
Geo thermal is a joke compared to Nuclear power. Any third grader knows that.

As far as hydrogen fuel cells....?
You leave out the rapid "instant hyrdogen technology" that's being developed all over the world. Cars will eventually convert their own "hydrogen" instantly some day in the future. Fuel Cell technology has changed so much in only 5 years it's amazing. Take a good look at Honda
and their home energy fuel cell system.

and battery technology is advancing at such a break neck speed,
I think there is great hope in modern battery companies in research and design,
that I feel very optimistic about that.

Clean coal is a scam.

good luck with that thermal idea
it's not politikally viable to invest in at this time.
Comment 10 of 113
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September 2, 2008
So this guy likes algae, this one likes nuclear, that one likes BEV's, and she likes geothermal...

We are blogging on a renewable site; does anybody have any ideas on how we can agree on things and make progress? Is there a place we can sign up to vote on specific technologies to be funded or subsidized? Would it be better to throw all the governmental involvement out and let free market decide? Would we make environmental progress if we did that?
Comment 11 of 113
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September 3, 2008
The author writes: "Coal power generation began a steep decline in 1983...."

If only this was true. Worldwide, coal power generation remains the mainstay of new capacity and once built these plants are going to be with us for many decades. Thus, CO2 sequestration schemes represent one of our best hopes for mitigating the environmental impact that will inevitably result from the rapid expansion in electricity generation in developing countries. Geothermal technology is nowhere near ready to provide the capacity additions now being supplied by coal so we have to make plans to deal with the available technology. Anyone at all concerned about global warming should be a big supporter of research funding in clean coal technologies.
Comment 12 of 113
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September 3, 2008
The author writes:
"The heavily subsidized nuclear industry died in 1979..."
This obituary is premature. About 16% of world electricity production is from nuclear power and it remains one of the best options for adding LARGE increments of new non-CO2-generating capacity in the near term. Obviously nuclear power isn't a perfect solution, but if the choice is between nuclear and coal generation, the nuclear option is preferable. Renewables may one day become practical options, but until then we need stopgap measures.
Comment 13 of 113
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September 3, 2008
The author writes:
"Geothermal power is as cheap as coal in areas where the earth's crust is thin but drilling costs currently make it too expensive in most parts of the world. A breakthrough in drilling technology could make it practical everywhere."

Traditional geothermal resources are relatively rare and certainly not available "practically everywhere;" they are, for instance, rare on the east coast of the US. Enhanced geothermal systems, aka "hot dry rocks" methods, could greatly expand available sites, but the technologies needed are still being researched. Cheap drilling methods are not the only thing that is required; one also needs to fracture the rock formations between the intake and outtake points so that they become porous, and this is not an easy task even under optimal conditions. Perhaps the reason the author spends so much time criticizing other research areas is because there is so little progress to report in the geothermal area....

The notion that we should close down research into promising technologies and put all our hopes into geothermal power strikes me as extremely ill-considered.
Comment 14 of 113
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September 3, 2008
Just plain and simply an excellent article. Thank you for your realistic and thoughtful analysis. It's unfortunate that more guys like us read articles like this than the politicians that need too but they are of course in denial and your words only fall on deaf ears with them! Thanks again!
Comment 15 of 113
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September 3, 2008
I agree with Mr Blakeslee, too little thought has gone into reviewing what options are available with respect to moving people from A to B, and the associated energy requirements (source, product and conversion technology).

This is best undertaken weighing up current and near term energy sources and conversion technologies and applying a well to wheel approach, taking into account, technical, societal and economic metrics. The EU Joint Research Centre has undertaken quite a bit of work in this field, but still has some way to go. Based on the outputs, government and industry can align to common goals based on sound technical, environmental and commercial principles

Based on this approach, I currently see no good reason to support the implementation of hydrogen infrastructure and fuel cell vehicles. Certainly hydrogen derived from coal does not make sense.

Unfortunately R&D is seldom directed from a top down strategic approach, rather money and resources are allocated based on public perception, political self interest (business) and the selling ability of researchers. Whilst there some validity in this approach, public and private money can be sunk into concepts without a commercial value proposition.
Comment 16 of 113
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September 3, 2008
Electric cars are disadvantaged in that you cannot take your car on long journeys without very long (overnight) stopovers to recharge.
Comment 17 of 113
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September 3, 2008
A good article that really hits the nail on the problem of group think, the tendency of enthusiasts to ignore the downsides of their favoured technologies, and the inertia of government policy.

But, among the government policies you chose to highlight, was there any particular reason why you did not mention support for crop-based biofuels? The scale of support for research into so-called second-generation biofuels is already far greater than that being spent on hydrogen. Whether the pay-off from this research will be worth the investment of public funds remains to be seen.

Meanwhile, however, the subsidization of biofuels based on food or feed crops vastly exceeds that spent on R&D into 2nd-generation biofuels. Just at the federal level, the volumetric ethanol excise tax credit (VEETC) will cost the U.S. Treasury over $4 billion in 2008. Over half a billion dollars will also be spent subsidizing biodiesel, most of it made from soybean oil, not waste cooking oil. Indeed, some estimates expect that the subsidy cost for just the B99 biodisel exported from the United States to Europe in 2007 and 2008 (do a google search on "splash and dash") could amount to around $900 million for the two years.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MmI3MDVjOGEwYWMxN2Y3ODZmYWJjNjk0YjAxNTI3M2E=

The figures cited above do not include state-level producer payments and fuel-tax exemptions for biofuels, state and federal grants and loans for the construction of biofuel plants, the extra costs to consumers of biofuel-blending mandates, nor the increases in the cost of foodstuffs attributable to the diversion of crops to biofuel production.

The U.S. EPA was given an opportunity to revise the Renewable Fuels Standard for 2008. It didn't. No elephants here!
Comment 18 of 113
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September 3, 2008
Thomas the problem is there are several renewable energy options to invest in....and it is deciding which one to invest in. How do we know which gives the least amount of investment for the same Kw of pwr? Spending 500,000 for a Geothermal Project in comparison to a Wind Turbine Farm of 300,000 for the same Kw....tells much about our investment dollar, never mind that wind doesn't always blow profits our way. What I find interesting and probably the greatest breakthrough in energy development where people are independent from the grid is this..........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDJpUVlWK0c

This can be used in transportation and in our homes, and factories...no deep drilling, no wind, and no solar, or the ridiculous ideas about fusion, and fission. I just think this is the best idea yet.
Comment 19 of 113
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September 3, 2008
My wish is for every hydrogen zealot to drive a purely hydrogen powered vehicle or run a home on hydrogen in a lab setting where objective observers and, YES, critics can scrutinize all aspects.

CHEWONKI FOUNDATION (Maine) created a hydrogen production, storage, distribution, and fuel cell conversion energy backup system for approx. a million dollars--the exact cost is very hard to find out because of the 'free' technical expertise used to desing and build he system.

It stores enough hydrogen to provide backup power for one large building, with few appliances, for about 1.5 days, in racks of 10,000 psi tanks.

It's run by several well trained and credentialed technicians.

So 'yes' you can make, store and convert hydrogen to electricity; but the cost is astronomical and the danger of a hydrogen leak/explosion is always present, especially considering the average end user

The article is controversial and invites reframing the energy discussion.

ETHANOL for example becomes one of comparing a corn field as a solar energy converter to solar PV panels. ..... or of dispelling well entrenched myths about Ethanol with facts about where all the corn formerly grown went---largely into cattle feed; and where all of the byproducts from making enthanol largely go---into a more nutritional cattle feed. HUH.

The debate goes round and round; and each of extracts from these articles nuggets that support our preferences and weaken the case of our 'competition'.

Are there any clear cut winners emerging? I like hydroelectric as clean and far more reliable than solar or wind. I like 'waste-to-energy' bio-refineries that use anaerobic digesters as the core conversion technology, and solar/wind to supply electricity to run pumps, etc.

I prefer to drive a car powered by CNG, since I like my hydrogen in a safer and more convenient modality.

Geothermal in Maine has long been a dream and it's being partially realized by deep well drillers; no hot rock yet.
Comment 20 of 113
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September 3, 2008
======="Clean coal means Methanation, not burning in the usual smokestack way...very bad indeed! Great Point Energy has a process that turns coal (are you listening Illinois? WV?) into methane aka 'natural gas' for heating etc. and captures much of the CO2 as well."-----------

THERE AIN"T NO SUCH THING AS "CLEAN COAL"!!!!!!!!!!

There never WAS no such thing as "clean coal"!

There ain't NEVER gonna be any such thing as "clean coal".

Coal STILL comes out of stripmines.

No matter HOW much lipstick you put on it, a warthog is still a warthog.
Comment 21 of 113
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September 3, 2008
Pro and Con....

Good Article, I don't agree with all of the summations of 'dead' projects -- especially related to 'nuclear' and the flaws and scare tactics against it. Events like TMI and Chernobyl were clearly caused when humans bypassed or ignored multiple systems designed to prevent the problems that occurred; yes, accidents happen in any industry, but the systems in place (new builds and all others retrofitted -- at great cost and subject to EXTREME regulatory scrutiny) were human error with catastrophic results. The benefits of the abundance of energy from that source is a very positive value calculation. It remains a high-cost item to initially make a new plant, so it's not all ideal. But compared to other large-scale alternatives, well, there are none that are workable for a half-century or more, at least.

We have a situation, like the author stated, of "groupthink" and related, Group Dynamics. We don't have a choice of "this or that". We have a number of options, choices, decisions, and each with its own pros and cons. We need the power on 24/7/365 for our power hunger, but we don't even have a solid, reliable power distribution grid to get the juice to the house. Our cars and trucks are running on a fuel that we're gonna run out of before too long, but we can't seem to get out of our own way to work toward a good option of replacement -- and I'm glad the author pointed out the flaw of centrally making hydrogen and trying to deliver it to an h-station... cost makes that just prohibitive and inefficient.

There's lots of smart people doing good things in very useful and positive developments in new energy areas. And a few quacks, too.

What we really need is for the MARKET to decide these things, and not some bureaucrat with a rulebook (associated with his purse-strings) to bring ONE energy design to the front. Ultimately, the market WILL decide anyway... as we all vote with our wallets, in the end.
Comment 22 of 113
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September 3, 2008
Burning wood pellets is clean; logging isn't!

Burning natural gas is clean; shoveling manure from cow stalls in January isn't!

Burning methanol is clean; growing the corn or beets to make it out of, isn't!

One solution is to cross breed Llamas with cows to produce animals who pile up their manure in large pellets.

Another is to ban wood pellet stoves and heat with natural gas or ethanol/methanol/butanol.

Round and round we go; meanwhile the parasites who run society are boreing into corporate energy bank accounts so they can run their SUV's less expensively.
Comment 23 of 113
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September 3, 2008
What I would like to see is a true, certified expert on each current or emerging energy technology write a 2000 word explanation of why they think their perfered technology is the best way to go. Then we could set them side by side and make honest comparisons. I am talking about scientific, technical experts only. Not so called experts that are defending their existing investments like a big oil or coal executive.
Comment 24 of 113
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September 3, 2008
It's a great article because it generates good energy for the discussion about renewable energy. What I've taken from the responses and from years of reading are that some approaches to our energy situation are "more better" than others. It's pretty obvious even to the lightly informed like myself that many smart low- to no-carbon footprint approaches are going to be necessary - and instituted quickly - if we do not want the earth's atmosphere to degrade faster than we can adapt to it. Independent/individual energy production will be critical in the effort but large-scale grid energy is here to stay for the foreseeable future. Education of the masses regarding the possibilities is key so there's an informed "market" to make informed decisions.

The denial point seems right on. Ego and the allure of money are always going to play a part in generating some of that because our existence right now is "market driven", not "human health driven". Let's hope that we remember - we ARE the market.

Domenic Jermano, thanks for forwarding that youtube clip. It will be interesting to see how that technology progresses. I have a friend who works for a magnetic levitation company (technology focused on transportation) so I'll see what he thinks. The sun's power and energy in magnetics always made sense to me too.

Keep it positive and keep it coming.
Comment 25 of 113
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September 3, 2008
So many comments could be made on these comments it would fill a book, and books about these solutions were written 30 years ago and are coming back again. But commenting at a higher level is productive here.

First, there are MANY DIVERSE SOLUTIONS to energy efficiency and conversion. One or more solutions work well in one place and another is better in another place. One groupthink problem is that there is ONE solution when that entire idea is wrong. Nature is a perfect model - diversity everywhere - many complimentary niches. Wind is not better or worse than solar PV or solar thermal power plants or other renewable solutions. They fit in different environments. We have to get that straight.

The power of the various status quos of industries is enormous and in nearly every case they feel their entire existence is on the line. They have the money and influence and political power to protect themselves and distort any dialog that might alter their existing niche. Exxon Mobile wins a Nobel Prize in this area.

Existing solutions, sometimes appropriate in the past, are loaded with subsidies and impacts that they do not pay for. If they did, their economics would often be upside down.

Many new solutions may have flaws that over time will be resolved. This applies to everything, technologies, and even people.

The answers lie in multiple solutions, based in science, derived from dreams, hard work, and R&D, developed in a free marketplace that is not distorted by the status quo and with every known impact quantified to a common baseline. This appears impossible in our (and others) systems so we will have to get there by crises, luck, and unexpected developments.

Some of the best, clearest, and well thought out work is done by the Rocky Mountain Institute and Amory Lovins. It's worth checking out at rmi.org.
Comment 26 of 113
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September 3, 2008
Great article. I realize this is a op ed, but it would be great if Mr. Blakeslee would reveal an individual or business investment in geothermal energy beyond his association to the Clearlight Foundation, in the interest in full disclosure.

Thanks.
Comment 27 of 113
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September 3, 2008
Thomas I have to agree with the majority of your comments. Now I can hear you saying SO WHERE'S THE BUT? Well I'm not going to take issue with any of your technical issues. My issue is that time and again the giant elephant we tend to ignore is WHERE IS ALL THIS ENERGY BEING USED AND FOR WHAT. If we continue to ignore the fact that even the most benign energy source known or unknown to man, has the fatal flaw of allowing man to continue to breed like flies,consume like there is no tomorrow,displace and extinguish species,pollute our life support systems to the point of collapse, then all the energy in the world will not help us. Now ignoring that is truly stepping over the bulge in the carpet and thinking it's only a temporary wrinkle that can be easily smoothed out by applying a better carpet sweeper.
And yes as a reformed hydrogen zealot I say now is the time to drive a big wooden stake through the heart of the hydrogen beast.
Comment 28 of 113
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September 3, 2008
Fred Linn writes:
"There ain't NEVER gonna be any such thing as "clean coal".
Coal STILL comes out of stripmines. "

No one ever claimed using coal was a utopian solution. Strip mines are undesirable, but such concerns pale in comparison to global climate change or being forced to live without affordable electricity. People in the developing world will readily accept a few strip mine eyesores in order to be able to have lights, A/C, etc., and they may even tolerate significant climate change to secures such benefits. It is futile to tell them they should wait until we get a few last kinks out of some spiffy new technology, so we had better prepare for the consequences of the currently viable generation options. Carbon sequestration isn't some scam put forth by "coal interests" to deflect criticism from the environmental impact of coal, it is a rational plan well worth the research funding it receives.
Comment 29 of 113
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September 3, 2008
Many thoughtful comments; I vote for: (1) Rick Rodgers: "The answers lie in multiple solutions, based in science, derived from dreams, hard work, and R&D, developed in a free marketplace that is not distorted by the status quo and with every known impact quantified to a common baseline. This appears impossible in our (and others) systems so we will have to get there by crises, luck, and unexpected developments." (2) Larry Elliot: The real elephant in the room is "the fact that even the most benign energy source known or unknown to man, has the fatal flaw of allowing man to continue to breed like flies,consume like there is no tomorrow,displace and extinguish species,pollute our life support systems to the point of collapse."
Comment 30 of 113
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September 3, 2008
I meant to add to my earlier comment:

Conservation can supply much of our future energy needs. Homes can be built smaller, much more energy efficient, and self sustainable with off-grid technologies.

Mr. Blakeslee's article seems to me to ignore the rug bump that deep drilling for thermal energy is, at this stage as it appears to me, very speculative.
Comment 31 of 113
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September 3, 2008
Your comments seem to be incredibly inciteful. Our Company is starting a fund to invest in alternative energy. The major problem we have encountered in gathering credible facts regarding all the alternatives, is that so many of the published articles are either too technical for investment purposes or the arguments being presented do not seem to pass the simple smell test. I cannot say that your arguements are fool proof, but the clear and concise logic presented seems to be compelling.

Thank you.
Comment 32 of 113
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September 3, 2008
Fix the grid and let the desert bloom with solar flowers. Go solar/electric with everything. (Re. distance traveling by auto...Fast chargin Li-ion batteries are on the horizon. The Altairnano battery can currently be charged in 10 minutes.)
Comment 33 of 113
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September 3, 2008
It is as clear-as-daylight Thom is pushing his own barrow for geothermal energy and have you believe that turning our planet earth into a giant swiss cheese is a good idea.
I have a better one, let us use the energy of the sun to produce hydrogen The F.C. plants can be scaled up our down to suit our energy needs.
I think we have to look up and not down and it will be less intrusive on this beautiful world we live in.
I think Thom's idea is full of holes!
Mike H.
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September 3, 2008
Speaking of elephants, the parable of the blind men and the elephant comes to mind. Everyone has their own pet idea. The core source of confusion seems the mixing of concepts for what can or should be done now, tomorrow and in the future. A major handicap seems the prevailing idea (with few exceptions) that ENERGY systems need to be large and monocultural . This comes from the tradition of the existing systems that can't be economical unless the generation "plant" or source is huge and therefore requires a vast grid for distributioln. The renewables lend themselves to multi, small and various sources adapted to locality. The major problem is the implementation of a TRANSITION--- and how we go from what we have to where we need to go. That would require some level of agreement, wouldn't it?
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September 3, 2008
To the numerous people who have pointed out that we need to let the market determine which technologies win - That is a great idea in an idealized world where the government does not get paid by giant corporations to pass legislation that mandates their products and creates very high barriers to entry by any competing technologies. The fact is we cannot fix these problems if we don't end corrupt practices of government and industry that disable the healthy functioning of the market. And that problem is much bigger than symptoms like climate change, air pollution and eco-tastrophe. Why? Because most people don't get it and the ones that do are the ones who are doing it!
http://lightontheearth.blogspot.com/2008/07/light-on-earth-manual-for-global.html
Jonathan Cole, MBA
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September 3, 2008
You make a convincing argument against the use of hydrogen to power cars- hydrogen certainly can store energy but is not an energy source.

However, I disagree with your arguments against nuclear power. A $1.4b subsidy for an industry that provides almost 20% of US electricity (in spite of no new plants in decades) is not outrageous. Furthermore, your concerns about nuclear safety are unjustified- the only major nuclear accident at Chernobyl occurred solely because of poor reactor design and operator error (the manual removal of all the control rods). Modern reactors have passive safety systems which make a meltdown event extremely unlikely. Your concerns about terrorist attacks on nuclear storage containers may have merit, but your sources are extremely weak and I am unconvinced that such an attack would be catastrophic.

Nuclear is by far the most inexpensive and proven source of zero-carbon electricity, and should not be ignored as part of the solution to global warming. It does have serious flaws, mostly related to waste disposal, but so does every other method of power generation, and just like geothermal, wind, and solar power, these problems might be solved with increased research and development, leading to reliable clean power.
Comment 37 of 113
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September 3, 2008
Those who believe that nuclear power is a solution to global warming should read the detailed (and I emphasize detailed) report "Nuclear power - the energy balance" by Phillip Smith and Jan Willem Storm van Leeuwen at

http://www.stormsmith.nl/

They have spent many years developing this report. Van Leeuwen continues the work after Smith's death a few years ago. One of the many topics they discuss is the extraction of uranium from seawater. This would cost far more energy than the uranium could provide.

Their main conclusion is that when the good grades of uranium ore are gone, and that won't be far off, nuclear power will generate more CO2 than fossil fuels.

Naturally, advocates of nuclear power dismiss this study. They also say that nuclear waste recycling will solve the problem. In other words, the problem doesn't exist, and they've got a way to handle it.

No they don't. Even MIT (The Future of Nuclear Power) says that the recycling of nuclear waste can't begin until an enormous amount of time and money has been spent to figure out whether it can be done safely. Never mind whether it is even worth the effort.

The deadliness of nuclear waste alone should be enough to put an end to the fantasy of nuclear power. Who will secure the nuclear waste dumps after the world economy has collapsed? That is happening now, mainly because we are running out of oil. We might still have the time and resources to safely isolate the nuclear waste that already exists. We don't have any excuse for generating more of it.
Comment 38 of 113
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September 3, 2008
Good Article ! As an ex-nuclear engineer for GE, I know "nuclear's dirty secrets". The "death knell" for nuclear power industry has been rung. Just 343 gigawatts of nuclear power are actually in use today which is 1/10th the amount predicted in 1980. Currently, this provides about 17% of the world's electrical demand. Now, these massive centralized units are "dinosaurs" that are costing the rate-payer $ billions to phase them out.
The reasons for the collapse of nuclear power systems include:
(1) Safety problems,
(2) Inability to dispose of nuclear waste,
(3) The potential uncontrolled proliferation of fissile
materials in the hands of terrorists.
(4) Highest cost for generating electricity (14.5 cents/kWhr) of all
fossil fuels and nearly all of the renewable energy sources.
(5) During the period 1985-2007, there was a huge cost
escalation from $1 billion to more than $9 billion for
the same size nuclear plant
(6) solar power plants can be built for less than25% of the cost
of an equivalent nuclear plant and in less than 20% of the
time (2 yr vs. 10 yrs).
In addtion, over 15 European countries have voted to ban, stop or dismantle nuclear plants. Germany is phasing out their nuclear plants by 2020.
Comment 39 of 113
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September 3, 2008
To Andrew G. :
Chernobyl is just one of nuclear power's accidents. What about the Three Mile Island, Monju Breeder reactor (Japan) accidents and the widespread contamination by the Russians at their nuclear center in the Ural mountains ? This has caused tens of thousands of Russians to be evacuated due to the radiation levels. Many of the villages still have high levels of radioactive contamination to live safely.
How about the three-fold increase in childrens' cancer rate down wind of Chernobyl ?
Controlled nuclear fusion, i.e. hydrogen fusion, is also not an option. In 1950, Dr. Edward Teller theorized the existence of nuclear
fusion. However, even with heavy Government research subsidy in the intervening 54 years, there has not been any demonstrated sustainable controlled nuclear fusion power source. The reality is that there are no "breakthroughs" expected in nuclear fusion. Nuclear fusion is now waiting on advances in superconducting magnets and new alloys for high temperature containment. Both of these are large technical obstacles. In addition, there is only a 100 years supply of the lithium-tritium fuel. These problems are not expected to be overcome in the foreseeable future. Government funding for nuclear fusion has declined over the past 6 years and is expected to stop in the near future. Even with massive Government funding, nuclear fusion would not expected to be commercialized until after 2050 if at all. Thus, nuclear fusion will NOT be available when the remaining fossil fuel supply is exhausted. We have to actively develop other energy options while we still have sufficient fossil fuel to make the transition.
As an ex-nuclear engineer: " I have been there and done that " So Mr. G, go get the facts.
Comment 40 of 113
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September 3, 2008
What about ground-source heat pumps?

Does anybody live in Boston who can check out Trinity Episcopal's ground-source set-up? They decided to go with ground-source some years ago because they wanted to use the space occupied with their old furnace.

The word I am getting here in Portland is that with 55 constant degrees at 5 feet, a slinky-style PET system should last 50 years with minimal noise, carbon, etc.

Even in Oregon, solar thermal added on could probably help many homes get to a far smaller footprint.

A nearby school wants to do a ground-source installation to serve itself and a number of homes around it.

Episcopalians tend to have committees that vet things to death. I cannot imagine that ground-source system was added without some thorough crunching.
Comment 41 of 113
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September 3, 2008
Thank-you very much this is an excellent read. With regard to humanities ability to ignore the elephant I found myself thinking of a Maxwell Smart comment when he was captured by KAOS agents. They called him a nuisance and then said "do you know what we do with nuisances?", to which Max replied "Ignore them until they go away?". Sorry to digress, talking of clean coal what I find fascinating is that as soon as a large scale, price competitive, renewable baseload energy is developed to a commercial level (maybe solar thermal, maybe geothermal, maybe something else) then the value of the coal reserves that Governments and vested interests are so vigorously protecting will plummet. They are wasting a lot of time and money sticking their finger in the proverbial dyke.
Comment 42 of 113
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September 3, 2008
Great Article, real science needs skeptics, Renewable Energy tends to be a herd of ostriches pointing out the best aspects of a technology (ie it creates only pure water when burned) while conveniently sliding the whole picture under the rug. The energy consumer needs to start expecting a more serious discussion if they expect serious solutions.

(P.S. I was nearly banned from Wikipedia for making these points about Nuclear Energy so be careful - you could be next...)
Comment 43 of 113
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September 3, 2008
I applaud all the contributors; this is a great discussion!

To those who have 'given up' on hydrogen: Check out Ammonia (NH3)

http://www.ammoniafuelnetwork.org/

It is a lot easier to store than hydrogen, it can burn directly under the right conditions in a special engine, and it is generally non-flammable under ordinary conditions. It has potential as a transportation fuel.
Comment 44 of 113
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September 3, 2008
Ammonia ???

There will surely be tears at the pumps when they bring that on :)
Comment 45 of 113
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September 3, 2008
Thanks for writing the article. Perhaps, if enough of us keep hammering the point home, eventually it will penetrate the mass consciousness.

Darryl McMahon
Author, The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy
http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/
Comment 46 of 113
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September 3, 2008
OxyHydrogen eliminates the need for heavy hydrogen storage tanks. One gallon of water produces 2183 gallons of hydrogen at standard temperature and pressure. Commercial systems are sold to truckers for 7, 8, or 9 thousand dollars for good, better, and best systems respectively. Yield is about 50% increase in fuel mpg with increased power and less polution. For consumers, a Mason jar, some vacuum tubing and some wiring will yield 40% to 226% increase in fuel mpg for either gas or diesel engines. Current engines will adjust accordingly and again burn much cleaner with more oxygen and hydrogen in the mix. Hummers are again feasable. Get your favorite luxurious gas guzzler and convert it while they are still cheap.
Comment 47 of 113
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September 3, 2008
Todd,
Yes, pungent and irritating....but energy dense (about 1/2 density of gasoline) and carbon-free. Seriously, zero-loss fueling connections for a gas stored at about 120 psi isn't a formidable challenge.

Robert,
I read about these converters here and there. I understand the concept. I am an engineer, and the efficiency increase claimed isn't thermodynamically possible based on the amount of H2/O2 produced. I also know someone who had a system professionally installed on a Mercedes and they are not seeing a marked improvement. I'm not trying to be negative....I just don't see it.
Comment 48 of 113
September 3, 2008
The ego is legion, but never wants a peaceful outcome. Do all these things and more, and then we'll have more to make more, and then we can compete with war for more, and more so we can reproduce more. More healthy babies to grow into fat adults to want more from the more offering by demanding. Government must find an answer so i can get stoned with alcohol, etc. and breed. Just don't change, just more, more. And keep busy.... Too busy to think about what you are doing with what and where your headed.
There is no more for more. What do you want---- now----- that would last forever? Or even for the generations far down the road of time. All, ALL species that have failed to provide a better environment for their passing are no longer here to tell of it. Large brained apes are not immune from extinction. The ego wants you dead and promises superiority.
It can be fun, tho. Catch you on the flipper.
Comment 49 of 113
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September 3, 2008
Shane,
Why wouldn't you consider solar thermal developed to a commercial level? Wind is certainly developed to a commercial level....and is a pretty solid baseload generator. I can only find one account of a major power outage attributed to wind fluctuation in Texas where they are relying on many GW of wind. This outage only affected a small number of customers because it was predicted hours ahead of time. It seems more a matter of acknowledging that elephant in the room as the author suggests.
Comment 50 of 113
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September 3, 2008
Phil,
Maybe I'm an eternal optimist but I truly believe that my parents left me a better environment than they had, and theirs left them a better one....and so on. One example is this very blog. If you speak english and are interested in renewable energy, you can find out up-to-the-minute information whenever you want and discuss it on a worldwide forum. My parents didn't have that. I'm not drunk or fat by the way.
Comment 51 of 113
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September 3, 2008
Warren Reynolds writes (about nuclear power):
"(4) Highest cost for generating electricity (14.5 cents/kWhr) of all
fossil fuels and nearly all of the renewable energy sources. "

I wonder where this estimate comes from.... Most of my electricity is generated via nuclear power and I don't pay anywhere near 14.5 cents/KWh for it--and the utilities make a tidy profit as well. All the estimates I have seen place the production costs for nuclear power as MUCH lower and quite competitive with other technologies. For adding large increments of dependable base load power without CO2 emissions, I don't see ANY current competitors. Hopefully one day geothermal, or some other competitor will emerge but we can't wait around for this and nuclear seems a heck of a lot better than coal....
Comment 52 of 113
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September 4, 2008
Good article. You are correct that nuclear and coal have hijacked the politicians. You don't include the billions in radioactive cleanups that taxpayers have had to pay.You are also correct on coal.

As you say geothermal is the way to go. It's surprising it has been marginalized for so very long.
Comment 53 of 113
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September 4, 2008
Thx for continuing to spread the light.

Large scale application of geothermal power associated with ditching oil&gas conventional drilling platforms.
There are now two very smart 'competing' EGS drilling technologies ready to be commercialized:
-hydrothermal: a Los Alamos spin-off (potterdrilling.com)
-liquid nitrogen cooled-computer-pulsed-hydraulic drilling and vertical tunnel concept developed by Dr. Helmut Sieke and Sirex.(www.turbojack.com/PRESENTATION.html)

Both technologies would reduce well completion costs and change drilling cost/depth function from exponential to linear.
The geothermal sector (hopelessly fragmented and underfunded) would benefit enormously from technology transfer&licensing agreements, takeovers and/or mergers.
The technologies are ready, yet suffer total lack of (media?) attention/interest and funding.

If only a fraction of these funds would be diverted to these and other e.g. capacitor electric storage....what would the world of our children look like????

It would probably take nothing less than a revolution and/or disasters of unimaginable scale associated with the 'old' gas&oil 'economy' to change politics.

In the mean time what else can we do but hope, write and to invest in Ormat Technologies (NYSE:ORA) U.S. Geothermal (AMEX: HTM) etc. etc.
Comment 54 of 113
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September 4, 2008
Interesting article.
Perhaps with some arguments and without number of false statement this article could be convincing. On the other side it just illustrate how Elephant Under Rug and Group denial actually grow when openness and facts are missing or are incorrect.
Regarding nuclear power safety author is very superficial. Both mentioned nuclear accidents were real core melt, and they in fact prove how safe western nuclear technology is. Three-mile island nuclear power plant has had containment and despite numerous technical and human failures this accident caused only minor environmental damage. This is still true despite irresponsible (media etc.) coverage and more than 40 expert assessments about accidents environmental influence.
On the other hand Chernobyl was Russian dual purposes (nuclear weapon and energy production) power plant without safety containment and with crew which decided to run plant against safety procedures with intentionally disabled safety systems in order to perform, ironically, safety improvement experiment. If Russians decided that safety should be assured with containment we will probably never know about that accident and nobody would be hurt.
Nuclear energy has maintained 16% world share all these years in production of the electrical energy. Between 1987 (after Chernobyl) around 6 reactors are built in average every year (that is more than 100 GWe in total). Right now in the world there are almost 30 GW nuclear power plants in building phase, more than 100 GW planned, and almost 200 GW proposed. Calling this level of activity failure or dead is denial.

Part 1/2
Comment 55 of 113
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September 4, 2008
Hydrogen zealots only can see those things that advance their agenda.

While they dominate the alt. energy media headlines; the real advances are being made quietly and effectively:

Source - Peter Boisen - Chairman, NGVA Europe
Wednesday, 03 September 2008 12:01
Peter Boisen, Chairman of NGVA Europe and Sweden's number one advocate for natural gas vehicles (NGVs), files this country report outlining industry developments in Sweden.

Executive summary

Sweden's fleet of NGVs during the first half of 2008 increased from 14,536 to 15,474 vehicles. The number of filling stations went from 115 stations to 118 stations, and the gas sales increased by about 9 %. The fuel prices remained at about 70-80 % of the corresponding price for gasoline.

Several large new Swedish projects for production of biomethane have been made public, and the industry is set to increase the sales of NG/biomethane by a factor 5 by 2014. Various new exciting product offers will together with continued investments in refuelling stations and biomethane production facilities be the main driver behind the planned market expansion.

EU policies will play an important role - increased support of the biomethane option, support of NG refuelling infrastructure developments, and the new mandatory CO2 emission targets introduced from 2012.

http://www.ngvglobal.com/en/country-reports/swedish-ngv-status-update-02090.html

Let me add that there is at least one commuter train that is powered by CNG, Gottingburg's converted VOLVO lite rail car.
Comment 56 of 113
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September 4, 2008
Part 2/2

It is true that I find article in fact much better that how it looks like from my two parts response.

Unfortunately assessment regarding geothermal seems again very misleading. Hear just two important facts. First, geothermal sources are very geographically determined, and most of them are so called low enthalpy sources. For example, hear in Croatia we have above the average geothermal potential, but still best field has temperature around 170 oC (340 oF) at depth of 2,5 km. With this temperature power plant can achieve efficiency lower than 15%. This is additionally because it is necessary to return fluid in the field. Total electrical potential for Croatia is estimated at 50 MW.
Secondly, influence to the environment from geothermal sources is close to zero only theoretically because in practice some of the fields have CO2 concentration which is comparable to the fossil energy in addition to all other environmentally dangerous substances. They are not always treated properly because it is complicated and very costly to take care of them.
Geothermal has real potential for number of direct heat applications where this source is easily reachable.
In the end just one more correction regarding the source of geothermal power: it is only partly from nuclear decay (around 60% inside Earth crust). Rest of the heat is cooling of the lithosphere since Earth creation and chemical processes.

Obviously it is easier to look on the problems in simpler way, but over simplistic view is dangerous and leads to more Elephant under rug and Group denial phenomena.

There is no single simple solution for satisfying our energy needs, and there is no energy source which will serve us forever. We need right mix of sources for our time regarding number of issues and constrains.
Comment 57 of 113
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September 4, 2008
Thank You Dan Hooper. Perhaps you can let me know what your friends thinks....I am djermano@yahoo.com
Comment 58 of 113
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September 4, 2008
This article has some interesting thoughts on the philosophical idea of group denial. Unfortunately, the examples for hydrogen systems are extremely narrow and in some a cases, inaccurate.

On hydrogen distribution: to choose just one example for distribution, trucking hydrogen around like we do with gasoline, misses the options more likely to be used widely:
-producing hydrogen on-site (eliminating any need for distribution); and
-producing hydrogen locally with very short distribution needs which could be met by pipeline or truck.

Later in this piece, the comparison with electric cars is also inaccurate (and misses the point that a hydrogen fuel cell car is an electric car too). Electric cars do not produce 1/3 the emissions of hydrogen cars. In fact, if you compared vehicles of the same size and range, well-to-wheels, it's the opposite. Hydrogen cars emit 1/3 to 1/2 the emissions of battery-only vehicles, even when you use the CA-grid mix for battery charging and natural gas for hydrogen production. In this article, the author compares the 2-seater, 220 mile range battery Tesla with the 5-seater, 280-mile range hydrogen Honda Clarity. Not exactly equal.

The weight comparison is also misleading. While a hydrogen tank might be heavy compared to the fuel it carries (hydrogen is the lightest element in the universe), one has to look at the whole vehicle. Whether you have a lead-acid, NiMH or Li-Ion battery in your battery vehicle, for the same vehicle with the same range, the battery vehicle will always weigh more. Sometimes, even twice as much.

These comments aren't meant to belittle this article, but make sure other readers know that there's a much fuller picture for these technologies than the small, and sometimes skewed snapshot Mr. Blakeslee gives. In the end, we will need all of these technologies aboard the same vehicle, working together so they can use the best attributes of each.

-Patrick Serfass, National Hydrogen Association
Comment 59 of 113
September 4, 2008
If one looks at hydrogen as a battery energy, and it is stored with wind or PV excess loads, it then becomes more efficient than current batteries, especially if made at home. Would the "PHILL" NG compressor work with hydrogen?

Rainmaker; I am an optimist too, but for different reasons. The industrial age has left the earth in jeopardy for future generations in topsoil loss, water and air quality, carbon sequestration, toxic chemical loads, etc. And our main concern is "How to capture MORE energy". I suppose that could be good, depending on what we plan to do with it. Competition and war trump peaceful cooperation every time--- so far. That is what must change in the world view, and that will come about on blogs like this one, I guess. Depends what we want energy for. Everything that is not for good is a lesson, and they (the lessons) keep getting more costly because we think with the ego.
Comment 60 of 113
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September 4, 2008
The Elephant stirs; denial is threatened ... lots of imput, it's stimulating, but it seems like we are all getting frustrated .... good news ... built showcase "Eco-Cottage" with tried and true Solar for SDHW and radiant assist ... working great ... lower cost then conventional system would have cost ... low, low monthly cost ...nothing better then Sun heated shower ... but hey some of you out there have already done this ... we need to keep pushing present tried and true Solar while we keep up the dialog .. why can't we build evacuated tubes, pump stations, PV's in the U.S. the supply line sucks; so lets fix that ... and let's not be greedy, sell units for decent pricing ... this is no longer a nitch market and the subjet is to important
Comment 61 of 113
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September 4, 2008
It would be interesting if each of the 'experts' making commentary about various renewable energy options were to actually state if they have any actual experience beyond the theoretical. There are actually not many people who are utilizing renewable energy in their every-day lives outside of perhaps solar hot water heating. Those of us who have been using these technologies for decades are often bemused but frustrated by the obvious misrepresentations about cost, utility, user-friendliness and affordability that frequently arise in these commentaries.

At first I thought it was people with vested interest in the old technologies, but I think that is just a part of the problem. There also seem to be a subset of people trying to create an identity for themselves by venturing opinions on subjects that they have no first-hand knowledge of. They can often be identified by how sure they are of themselves.

We need to get over these kinds of competitive debates. We need to get to work to bring technologies that work to the market. We need less 'experts' and more entrepreneurs and visionary investors. These problems are not going to be solved by venture capitalist slight of hand nor those 'experts who can deconstruct anything. The technologies that already overwhelm the world are riddled with problems that make them improbable successes. Just because we can identify problems does not mean we should abandon the effort to develop technologies that overcome the problems. The alternative is mass extinction, including, possibly, of the human race.
Comment 62 of 113
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September 4, 2008
Patrick in #58 is apparantly in the National Hydrogen Association. His response perfectly illustrates the kind of denial I'm talking about. I gave a reference that showed a real electric car using 1/3 as much fuel well-to-wheel as the Honda hydrogen car. He dismisses this result because the electric car doesn't have a back seat! Adding a back seat to the Tesla hopefully wouldn't triple its fuel consumption. In fact hot sports cars typically use much more fuel than sedans. Believing this dismissal is like stepping around the lump in the rug.
He also dismissed the innefficiency of truck delivery of hydrogen by saying the hydrogen could be made on site. I agree that both cars are essentially electric. The battery in this case is essentially replaced by: hydrolysis of water (70% efficient), compression of the hydrogen (80% efficient) and a fuel cell (40% efficient. The overall efficiency of this battery replacement is thus .7 X.8 X.4 = 23%! Lithium batteries are more than 90% efficient.
I didn't present much detail because the article is about denial
At hydrogen conferences everybody steps around these inconvenient lumps but when the DOE does the same billions get wasted on the wrong technologies.
Comment 63 of 113
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September 4, 2008
Tom,
While I liked your article and it makes a few good points, your post above is an oversimplification. Everybody blogging here wants a good BEV. Why don't you give some real world proven data about how long the 7300 batteries in the Tesla will last? If they perform anything like the Li or Lipo batteries in my mobile phone, camera, and notebook computer, I'll pass.

Hydrogen has some challenges, but so does every energy carrier currently being proposed for our transportation sector. I understand your recent experience at a hydrogen conference left you feeling this way, but you apparently didn't engage the attendees or presenters thoroughly enough to satisfy your quest for answers and now you are making assumptions and lashing out at everyone working on hydrogen research. I would suggest as an alternative to stay in 'search for answers' mode a little longer before lumping hydrogen in the same category as 'clean coal'.
Comment 64 of 113
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September 4, 2008
Mary Saunders, post #41, I live near Boston and have met Carl Orio, president of Water & Energy Systems, the designer of the geothermal system in the Trinity Church, Boston. I convinced him to speak at a High School Building Committee meeting years ago to see if his knowledge of geothermal heating and cooling might convince the engineers and designers to consider such a system in our to-be-built HS. Unfortunately, we were not persuasive enough to get them to spend an additional $200,000 upfront to develop a system. 6 years into the school's existence now, the energy costs for heating and cooling it are a major expense for my town, like so many other municipalities. Mr. Orio had projected an 8-10 year payback for installing and operating, as I recall, not even factoring in the cooling bonus of such a system in the summer for the facility (we have a limited and expensive to operate cooling system now) and the massive increase in heating oil costs.

Such is life.

I can only assume that the Trinitiy Church has fared well with the system they have but you now have the name of the designer should you ever want to inquire. His firm's in Atkinson, NH.

Geothermal systems are one of many possibilities that are proven and better - on many accounts - than "conventional" systems. There's no single cure for all of our energy challenges and that's OK, great even. Akin to planting American Elms on so many Main Streets early last century, it would be a mistake to monopolize any "new" form of energy, for reasons well beyond the fact that major drawbacks might reveal themselves years later. We've been there/are there.
Comment 65 of 113
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September 5, 2008
-------"Hydrogen has some challenges, but so does every energy carrier currently being proposed for our transportation sector."----------

What drawbacks are there to biofuels? I don't know of any.

As for herd instinct----my two german shepherds can move an entire herd of bufallo anywwhere they want them with ease---including a very large very aggressive bull who weights about 2800 lbs. They know that all they have to do is harrass the bull until he goes where they want him to---the rest of the herd will follow.

All we need are a couple of german shepherds. Forget the herd, chase and bite the bull---the herd will follow.
Comment 66 of 113
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September 5, 2008
In comment 66 Fred Linn writes:

"What drawbacks are there to biofuels? I don't know of any."

No drawbacks? Here are just a few:
1) High cost--as drawbacks go, this is a BIG one for most of us
2) Competition with food production leading to high food prices
3) Increased land utilization leading to potential deforestation, etc.
4) Ethanol is more corrosive than traditional fuels, requiring engine modifications and alternatives to transportation/distribution schemes
5) Many biofuels rely on fertilizer to achieve sufficient yields, these are usually produced from methane so most biofuels are not currently carbon neutral

Biofuels are a promising potential component of a future energy-generation system, but to think that they are without drawbacks is overly optimistic.
Comment 67 of 113
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September 5, 2008
To all the Doubting Thomas's. Re. hydrogen. Yesterday a whole herd of elephants came out from beneath the rug and signed the approval for vehicles to run on hydrogen and endorsing the hydrogen economy. It is called the European Parliament. Will America get left behind by not embracing the new technology? as was the case in the steel industry it dominated for many years.
Oh and I'm no zealot just a car enthusiast who happens to believe that there is a better and cleaner way to power our vehicles in the twenty first Century. Stripping electrons from hydrogen rather than burning smelly oil and polluting the planet makes more sense to me.

Mike H.
Comment 68 of 113
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September 5, 2008
Thomas Blakeslee is singing the same old song. Subsidies, subsidies, subsidies for his favorites.
Comment 69 of 113
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September 5, 2008
-------"No drawbacks? Here are just a few:
1) High cost--as drawbacks go, this is a BIG one for most of us"--------

High tech batteries are not expensive. Hydrogen generating systems and fuel cells are not expensive? Replacing the entire vehicle, supply, distribution network is not expensive?
Biodiesel is usable in any diesel engine with no modification. Ethanol is usable in any conventional gasoline engine up to 30% mixture----and with only minor modifications up to 85%. Biofuels are far and away the least expensive to setup and implement, and maintain of any system proposed.

----"2) Competition with food production leading to high food prices"--------

I've never heard of anyone who starved because they couldn't get enough saltwater algae or dead tree limbs to eat.

-----"3) Increased land utilization leading to potential deforestation, etc."-----

Land is utilized no matter what you do. Even doing nothing with it is a utilization. Deforestation happens when forests are cut down and not replaced. When forests are replanted,and the trees are not cut down faster than they grow---we always have trees. If we plant more trees than we cut down, we end up with more forests than we had. If we cut down trees and don't replant them, we end up with no forests

-----"4) Ethanol is more corrosive than traditional fuels, requiring engine modifications and alternatives to transportation/distribution schemes"------

No, that is completely false. Flex Fuel cars are being produced now and cost no more than conventional cars. Petroleum leaves sludges and varnishes becuase it is not as good a solvent as alcohol. The only thing that needs to be done to use ethanol is to clean out the tanks well to remove pollutants left by petroleum. No changes at all are needed for biodiesel.
Comment 70 of 113
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September 5, 2008
--------"5) Many biofuels rely on fertilizer to achieve sufficient yields, these are usually produced from methane so most biofuels are not currently carbon neutral"-------

Then don't use fertilizer made from fossil fuel. Methane can also be produced from sewage. It is chemically the same methane that is drilled out of the ground. Biomethane is also an excellent fuel.

-------"Oh and I'm no zealot just a car enthusiast who happens to believe that there is a better and cleaner way to power our vehicles in the twenty first Century."----------

Indy League Race Circuit cars all run on 100% ethanol. Would driving and Indy race car get your ethusiasm up?
Comment 71 of 113
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September 5, 2008
Fred Linn writes above:
"----"2) Competition with food production leading to high food prices"--------

I've never heard of anyone who starved because they couldn't get enough saltwater algae or dead tree limbs to eat."

Of course, very little (if any) biofuel is currently being made from algae and dead tree limbs--probably due to high cost and a tumult of technical issues (about which we could probably argue for days). Instead people are using corn to make ethanol and planting less wheat, etc. Food prices have increased sharply in the last year, it part due to a foolish push toward use of corn-based ethanol in the US. Every time I go to the grocery store I am reminded about this "drawback" that Fred insists does not exist....
Comment 72 of 113
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September 5, 2008
Fred Linn writes above (comment 71):
"--------"5) Many biofuels rely on fertilizer to achieve sufficient yields, these are usually produced from methane so most biofuels are not currently carbon neutral"-------

Then don't use fertilizer made from fossil fuel. Methane can also be produced from sewage. It is chemically the same methane that is drilled out of the ground. Biomethane is also an excellent fuel."

FIne by me, but of course this is more expensive so people actually don't do that. See point #1: Cost. Economics is so inconvenient sometimes--one might even call it a "drawback."
Comment 73 of 113
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September 5, 2008
Fred Linn writes above:
"-----'4) Ethanol is more corrosive than traditional fuels, requiring engine modifications and alternatives to transportation/distribution schemes'------

No, that is completely false. "

If Fred thinks that alcohols are less reactive than alkanes and alkenes he needs to review some organic chemistry before he heads back to the classroom.... Pipeline owners know enough not to allow fuels with a high percentage of ethanol in their pipelines so enthanol users are planning their own dedicated pipelines. I'd call the need for major new infrastructure a "drawback" but that's just my personal opinion....
Comment 74 of 113
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September 5, 2008
Biofuels are NOT carbon neutral from an enviromental perspective.

We consume vegitation and we exhale some carbon dioxide, yes. We also return a lot of carbon to the earth in our other waste. When an engine is burning biofuel it is returning substantially all of the carbon from the vegitation to the environment via the atmosphere. This creates a huge imbalance.
Comment 75 of 113
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September 6, 2008
ALL carbon in biomass materials are produced by photosynthesis from carbon removed from the atmosphere. If the carbon in the fuel were not first removed from the atmosphere, you would not have the biomass needed to produce the biofuel. It is impossible to put more carbon into the atmosphere using biofuels only. The net carbon gain to the atmosphere from using biofuels is 0.

-------"Pipeline owners know enough not to allow fuels with a high percentage of ethanol in their pipelines so enthanol users are planning their own dedicated pipelines."--------

Commercial pipelines are for pumping petroleum products. As I said before, ethanol is a better solvent than gasoline. It pickups up all the sludges, varnishes, and pollutants left behind by the petroleum. Ethanol is not shipped by pipeline for this reason. It contaminates the ethanol---not because it damages the pipeline. Therefore--in order to avoid costly clean up after petroleum shipment--ethanol is transported seperately. It is not used in the volumes that petroleum is, therefore this presents fewer problems. There is no reason not to ship ethanol by pipeline. However, from a practical standpoint, production will be geographically distributed to avoid shipping costs---you can make ethanol anywhere---it is only petroleum that needs to be shipped half way around the world.
Comment 76 of 113
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September 6, 2008
Unless they are charged entirely by solar, wind or geothermal energy---either battery or hydrogen cars produce emmissions. They are just not released at the tailpipe---they are released at the point of power generation.

To say that electric, battery or hydrogen cars do no produce emmissions is false.
Comment 77 of 113
September 7, 2008
This was a good article. My only critique is that you ignored the group think that created the biofuel bubble. Here is a reality check for biodiesel:

http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2008/9/2/113410/6394

and repeal of the federal blending mandate is now part of the Republican platform. Putting that mandate in place was a bipartisan mistake. I can only hope that removing it will also be a bipartisan affair.
Comment 78 of 113
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September 8, 2008
Russ---let's use that same reasoning on electric, hydrogen, or natural gas cars. Nobody is using them because they aren't available---so let's outlaw them.

The arguement that biofuels are heavily subsidized is false. The 2008 federal budget GAVE a grant of $47.3 million to Exxon/Mobil to research cost saving shortcuts in oil production. This is to make it more profitable to produce oil. Why does the company that is posting the HIGHEST profits every recorded quarter after quarter need to be given the tax payers money to increase their profits and continue to sell a product that is destroying the United States? Corruption, political influence buying, greed and power lust.

This is 2X the amount spent in entireity on biofuels, and a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the estimated $350-400 Billion in subsidies, tax loopholes, special favors, grants, giveaways, given to the fossil fuel/nuclear industries yearly.

The Republicans are deliberately and systematically destroying the United States in their pandering to status quo energy lobbies and the $$$ they are handing out to the corrupt politicians standing in line with their hands out.
Comment 79 of 113
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September 9, 2008
"The arguement that biofuels are heavily subsidized is false." -- Fred Lin

Huh? According to what metric and what source? As measured by Doug Koplow (who, in 1998 for Greenpeace, wrote the most thorough study of subsidies to the oil industry to date), subsidies to ethanol are over $1.40 per gallon of gasoline equivalent, and to biodiesel are over $1.80 per gallon of diesel equivalent. He has estimated that total subsidies (state as well as federal) in 2007 were more than $7 billion for ethanol, and over $1.2 billion for biodiesel. With most subsidies to biofuels linked to production or consumption volumes, those numbers are set to escallate rapidly over the coming years. And that is not counting the higher costs to consumers of agricultural commodities resulting from the diversion of crops to biofuels.

http://www.globalsubsidies.org/en/research/biofuel-subsidies-united-states-2007-update

Aggregate tax breaks and other support for the oil industry in the United States may be higher than $10 billion, but it is also a much larger industry than the biofuels industry, so the subsidy per gallon is less. That is not a defense of subsidies to petroleum, only to put the relative subsidies into perspective. Given that the USA's liquid fuel use is over 200 billion gallons a year, the idea of subsidizing the replacement of those fuels at a cost of over $300 billion a year is, to put it mildly, a doubtful best use of those resources.

The $350-400 billion in subsidies, tax loopholes, special favors, grants, giveaways, given to the fossil-fuel and nuclear industries given yearly, Fed omits to point out, is a global estimate, not a U.S. estimate. And most of that is the under-pricing of petroleum fuels in countries like China, Egypt, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq and Venezuela.
Comment 80 of 113
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September 9, 2008
Great article: realistic and honest. You should revise it though, or have it proofread, it has many typos and errors. The following paragraph is incomplete:
"The 9/11 attacks showed us how easily a meltdown could be arranged by a well-aimed terrorist-hijacked airliner crash. In fact, if you're a terrorist, the possibilities with nuclear fuel and wasteendless. The "nuclear renaissance" will be a bonanza for terrorists. stored all over the map will be".

I remember seeing another error somewhere, but cannot find it now.

Cheers

I will wait for corrections before sending this article to friends. Cheers.
Comment 81 of 113
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September 9, 2008
Fossil fuel and nuclear energy industries are the most heavily subsidized industries we have. I have seen estimates that without subsidies the price of gas in the US would be $12-14 a gallon.

I say take all the subsidies off of everything and let the market set the price.

The $.51/gallon blender's subsidy that you refer to goes to petroleum retailers ---- not to ethanol producers. This was meant as an inducement to compensate retailers for mandated ethanol blends in certain high pollution
to offset the costs of cleaning tanks and pipelines before ethanol blend fuels could be stored or transported in them.. However, this problem has been pretty much eliminated with blend at the pump. Ethanol can be kept in seperate tanks not requiring extensive cleanout before use. The petroleum retailers are still getting the subsidy. $2.5 Billion in 2006. In contrast, the support of DOE for cellulosic ethanol production amounts to a loan of $385 Million spread over 4-6 years for the constrution of a plant. This is not a subsidy, as the loan amount needs to be repaid. It may be at a lower than market interest rate(I don't know)---but even that would be pocket change compared to the billions of $$$ going to petroleum producers/retailers.
Comment 82 of 113
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September 9, 2008
"I have seen estimates that without subsidies the price of gas in the US would be $12-14 a gallon." -- Fred Linn

Fred, since you keep repeating those figures, I'll repeat what I wrote on an earlier string ("Algae: Biofuel of the Future?", August 27) in response to a similar assertion you made:

Let me guess: that is the report released in 1998 by the International Center for Technology Assessment (CTA), "The Real Price of Gasoline":

http://www.icta.org/press/release.cfm?news_id=12

The actual government support directly given to oil companies (mainly through tax breaks) is relatively small -- considerably less than $1 per gallon. The recent EIA investigation into subsidies to different energy industries also found such subsidies to oil be far less than $1 per gallon.

The CTA got such high per-gallon numbers by throwing in all manner of estimated externalities, plus expenditure on road-building and the like. Many of those "costs" relate to the costs imposed on society by maintaining and operating the country's road-transport infrastructure -- costs that, if they are to be credited to "the true price of gasoline" should, by the same logic, also be applied to biofuels. These include (in the report), the costs of road-building, traffic congestion, noise, accidents, and even some of the externalities generated by air pollutants and CO2 (note: biofuels are not yet CO2-neutral).
Comment 83 of 113
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September 9, 2008
The $.51/gallon blender's subsidy that you refer to goes to petroleum retailers ---- not to ethanol producers. ... However, this problem has been pretty much eliminated with blend at the pump. [Yet] the petroleum retailers are still getting the subsidy." -- Fred Linn

I'm having trouble understanding your logic here, Fred. On the one hand you criticize subsidies to oil. Then you say it is not the ethanol producers but the oil companies that are pocketing the blender's volumetric ethanol excise tax credit (clearly you don't appreciate the difference between initial and ultimate incidence of a tax benefit). If that is so, then why do you defend the tax credit? I should think, given your distaste for subsidies to the oil industry, you would want it abolished immediately.

By your logic, one would assume that the ethanol industry would want it abolished as well. But the evidence points solidly in the other direction. The ethanol's lobby organization, the Renewable Fuels Association, has instead defended and fought for the VEETC at every opportunity. Here is a quote from their "2007 RFA Legislative Priorities":

http://www.ethanolrfa.org/objects/documents/1121/2007_rfa_legislative_priorities.pdf

"Tax incentives have played a critical role in supporting the development of the ethanol market in the U.S. The most significant tax incentive encouraging the expanded use of ethanol is the Volumetric Ethanol Excise Tax Credit (VEETC). ... The VEETC and the secondary tariff on imported ethanol reduce the risk associated with investment in new market (biofuels) and new technologies (cellulose). Permanency of the VEETC and its structure is an effective risk reducing instrument for investors and the financial community, necessary to further expansion of the domestic ethanol industry."

I don't know about you, but that sounds like an endorsement. They understand, but I guess you don't, that the main effect of the VEETC is to raise the price received by ethanol producers.
Comment 84 of 113
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September 11, 2008
I have encountered many people lately who want to lump all farm subsidy programs to ethanol to make it sound impressive. Just keep in mind Ron, no farmers, no biofuels, and you need biofuels if you want to have something to put in your mouth--food is a biofuel. Ethanol is one of the products that helped pull the farmers out of the crisis the late 70"s early 80's---remember Willy and FarmAide ?

Farming is the most basic invention of mankind. Farming enabled the cavemen to give up being hunter/gatherers, move out of caves, build cities and civilizations. So far as energy is concerned, we are still hunter/gatherers---hunt for fossil fuels--use it up--hunt for some more--use it up...........................biofuels are farming our energy needs. I think it is time to give up the caveman ways.
Comment 85 of 113
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September 12, 2008
"I have encountered many people lately who want to lump all farm subsidy programs to ethanol to make it sound impressive." -- Fred Linn

Like whom? Meanwhile, many people want to lump all sorts of subsidies to transport generally and attribute it to gasoline.

----------

"Just keep in mind Ron, no farmers, no biofuels, and you need biofuels if you want to have something to put in your mouth--food is a biofuel."

Profound. And if you divert that "biofuel" to run cars, you raise the price of biofuels that people want to put in their mouths.

----------

"Ethanol is one of the products that helped pull farmers out of the crisis the late 70s and early 80s"

You mean farmers, or Archer Daniels Midland? Read up on your ethanol history, Fred.

----------

"Farming is the most basic invention of mankind. Farming enabled the cavemen to give up being hunter/gatherers, move out of caves, build cities and civilizations."

And most of those civilizations (e.g., Babylon) collapsed after a few centuries because they asked too much of the soil. (Meanwhile, hunter-gatherers survived into modern times.) I'd point out also that for 99% of the history of agriculture, its production wasn't subsidized.

---------

"So far as energy is concerned, we are still hunter-gatherers --- hunt for fossil fuels, use it up, hunt for some more--use it up ....... I think it is time to give up the caveman ways."

I agree. But you continue to frame the argument as an either or: either fossil fuels or biofuels. That is a false dichotomy.
Comment 86 of 113
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September 12, 2008
Ron---why do you continue to equate biofuels with starvation? How many corn cobs and stover do you? How much saltwater algae do you eat? How much chipped or pulped wood do you eat?
About 20% of the US corn crop is used to make DDG of which ethanol is a by product. A little more than 40% is used to produce high fructose corn syrup---Karo---a basic ingredient mainly in soda pop and candy. Why not blame soda pop and candy for world hunger? The production of those products use twice as much corn as ethanol. The thing is, corn syrup is used due to cost---if we devote more corn DDG and ethanol production, we can easily substitute sugar from cane or beets---which is what was used in the first place, corn syrup was only used when the price dropped precipitously due to over production.
ADM is not the only ethanol producer. There are many more farmer co-op organizations that are farmer owned investement co-ops.
Most ethanol projects coming on line now are cellulose biomass derived, the food arguement is really no longer relavent.

The fact is, there is no other technology that is even remotely close to providing the energy and environmental changes we need right now. Oil is killing the US economy---we need help fast. Biofuels can do everything we need, will be quick and cheap to implement---and the most effective and least disruptive choice we have.
Comment 87 of 113
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September 13, 2008
"[W]hy do you continue to equate biofuels with starvation? How many corn cobs and stover do you? How much saltwater algae do you eat? How much chipped or pulped wood do you eat?" -- Fred Linn

Fred is, of course, referring to possible future biofuels. My concern is with the present use of grains and oilseeds as feedstocks. And please note, Fred: regulations in the USA and the EU still envisage a two-fold expansion in the use of those crops by 2015.

Q: Currently, what percentage of liquid biofuels in North America and Europe is currently being made from crops grown on arable land?

A: Close to 100%

Q: What percentage of liquid biofuels in North America and Europe is currently being made from crops grown on arable land?

A: Less than 1%

-----------------------------

"About 20% of the US corn crop is used to make DDG of which ethanol is a by product." -- Fred Linn

Nice try, Fred, but no economist would back you up. You are saying, in effect, that ethanol plants are actually DDGs plants. Given that DDGs sells at no more than the price of corn, and currently LESS than the price of corn, and that the process yields 2/3 less of that product than the corn that went into it, there is no way that one can redefine DDG as the primary product of those plants and ethanol as a by-product. A primary product must be a value-ADDING product. DDG is a value-SUBTRACTING product, the loss of which is compensated (thanks to subsidies and market price support) by higher profits on ethanol.

Ethanol is the primary product of ethanol plants; DDG is a co-product or by-product. And, by the way, the fraction of corn going into ethanol plants these days is at least 25% (not 20%) and set to rise to 30%.
Comment 88 of 113
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September 13, 2008
Correction: My second Q & A was supposed to read:

Q: What percentage of liquid biofuels in North America and Europe is currently being made from corn cobs, stover or saltwater algae ?

A: Less than 1%
Comment 89 of 113
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September 13, 2008
"A little more than 40% is used to produce high fructose corn syrup--a basic ingredient mainly in soda pop and candy. Why not blame soda pop and candy for world hunger? The production of those products use twice as much corn as ethanol. The thing is, corn syrup is used due to cost--if we devote more corn DDG and ethanol production, we can easily substitute sugar from cane or beets---which is what was used in the first place, corn syrup was only used when the price dropped precipitously due to over production." -- Fred Linn

Fred, from where do you get your 40% number? According to the USDA's Economic Research Service, "Currently, about 4.1% of U.S.-produced corn is made into high-fructose corn syrup" -- i.e., 1/10th of the proportion you claim.

www.ers.usda.gov/AmberWaves/February08/Features/CornPrices.htm

Personally, I prefer sugar to HFCS in my soft drinks, but -- empty calories or not -- those calories still provide nourishment for people. By the way, the market for HFCS is the result of another policy distortion, not just (previously) low corn prices: protection of the U.S. sugar industry, which raises the domestic price of sugar relative to HFCS.

Oh, and don't look for domestic sugar prices to fall much any time soon. Although Mexican sugar can now come in duty free, a new program has been set up to buy "surplus" sugar and sell it cheaply for ethanol production.

www.biofuelsdigest.com/blog2/2008/05/26/sugar-prices-expected-to-stay-in-check-in-2008-09-sugar-ethanol-price-discount-vs-oil-to-increase/

-------------------

"ADM is not the only ethanol producer. There are many more farmer co-op organizations that are farmer owned investment co-ops."

You were referring to the situation at the end of the 1970s, Fred, and making claims as to which part of the agri-food industry was benefiting from ethanol support policies at the time. Read up on your ethanol history. The main beneficiary, especially at the inception of the policy, was ADM.
Comment 90 of 113
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September 13, 2008
"Most ethanol projects coming on line now are cellulose biomass derived, the food arguement is really no longer relavent." -- Fred Linn

Um, the Renewable Fuels Association (which ought to know) lists 3.6 billion gallons per year in new or expanded U.S. ethanol capacity under construction on its web page (last updated on 11 September 2008):

www.ethanolrfa.org/industry/locations/

Of that 3.6 billion gallons per year in new capacity, only one plant -- the 0.020 billion per year Range Fuels plant in Soperton, Georgia -- will use something other than corn as its feedstock. The RFA tends not to list plants as "under construction" until they actually are, so they may have under-counted some new capacity that is merely in the exploration or planning stage, but it seems hard to substantiate your claim that "most ethanol projects coming on line now are cellulose biomass derived."

Don't forget: the new Renewable Fuels Standard calls for 15 billion gallons a year of corn-ethanol production -- indefinitely. As one agricultural economist I heard recently expressed it, that is like a permanent drought cutting out 3.5 billion bushels a year. (And, yes, that figure assumes high ethanol yields, and gives credit for DDGs.) Meanwhile, the number of hungry mouths in the world continues to grow.

--------

"The fact is, there is no other technology that is even remotely close to providing the energy and environmental changes we need right now. Oil is killing the US economy--we need help fast. Biofuels can do everything we need, will be quick and cheap to implement--and the most effective and least disruptive choice we have." -- Fred Linn

Again, you are arguing in black-and-white terms. Electric-powered vehicles are already contenders for personal vehicles, buses, trams, trains, motorcycles and even bicycles (not heavy-goods vehicles or jets). The need is to have technology-neutral policies, not skew the market towards liquid fuels and ignore the collateral damage.
Comment 91 of 113
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September 14, 2008
-------"Meanwhile, the number of hungry mouths in the world continues to grow."---------------

Again with the hungry mouths to feed. What are you going to feed them? Corn? Roughly 20% of our corn crop is used to produce DDG now. DDG is used to produce high qaulity meat, fish, dairy and poultry products. The last time I checked, beef, pork, fish, poultry, dairy, and egg products are all food. Roughly twice as much corn is used to produce high fructose corn syrup---the base ingredient in soda pop and candy. If you want something to blame world hunger on, blame it on soda pop and candy. We can easily produce three times the amount of ethanol that we currently are by diverting corn from high fructose syrup production to DDG. We can still very easily use sugar to make candy and soda pop--the only reason we switched to corn syrup was because of corn overproduction which made corn syrup cheaper than sugar. AND, we can also ferment and distill sugar crops with little or no modification at all in facilities that process grain. Sugar cane, sugar beets, sorghum and agave can all be processed with the same equipment that grain is, you simply do not need the worting process---converting the starch in grain to sugar.

If you are really concerned about world hunger---you should be supporting ethanol production. When a diet of mostly corn is feed to humans it causes a condition called pellegra. It is extremely painful and debilitating. It will lead to death due to naicin and trypotophan deficiency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pellagra

I consider the arguement that we should not use ethanol because we should feed the corn to starving people a particularly callous and uniformed statement. A diet of mainly corn which caused pellegra is an extremely horrible way to die, and was quite common in the Southern US a century ago.
Comment 92 of 113
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September 15, 2008
"Roughly 20% of our corn crop is used to produce DDG now. DDG is used to produce high quality meat, fish, dairy and poultry products. The last time I checked, beef, pork, fish, poultry, dairy, and egg products are all food. Roughly twice as much corn is used to produce high fructose corn syrup" -- Fred Linn

Fred, anybody reading this string will see that I have rebutted your numbers, with sources, and all you do is keep repeating your numbers with no references to substantiate them.

The share of the corn crop going into ethanol plants which produce DDGs as a by-product (recovering the protein and oils, but consuming the starch) is now more like 25%, not 20%, and is set to rise to 30% soon.

High-fructose corn syrup (HFCS), like ethanol, uses only the starch. The remaining protein can also be used for animal feed from that process as well. But my figures show that it accounts for around 4% of corn production in the United States, not 40%. In total, the total corn sweetener share (including glucose syrup and dextrose) is less than 6% -- down from a peak of 10.4% in 1993/94

Cattle may be able to include up to 30% of DDGs in their diet, but poultry, hogs and catfish, which have different digestive systems than ruminants, can only consume a limited share of DDGs in their diets -- typically less than 20%, and for some animals less than 15%.

www.ncga.com/public_policy/PDF/01_10_07AgricultureRuralAmericaRoleEnhancingNationalEnergySecurity.pdf
Comment 93 of 113
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September 15, 2008
"We can easily produce three times the amount of ethanol that we currently are by diverting corn from high fructose syrup production to DDG." -- Fred Linn

Fred, you are talking through your hat again. How about tracking down some real data before making seat-of-the pants claims?

According to the USDA's Economic Research Service, in marketing year 2008/09, around 0.49 billion bushels of U.S. corn is expected to be used to produce HFCS, and another 0.24 billion bushels to produce glucose syrup and dextrose, bringing the total amount of corn used to produce corn sweeteners to 0.73 billion bushels -- or 6% of the U.S. corn crop.

By contrast, the production of fuel alcohol will consume 4.1 billion bushels, or 33% of the U.S. corn crop.

www.ers.usda.gov/Briefing/Sugar/data/table27.xls

Will you at least admit that these figures are correct?

-------------

"[T]he only reason we switched to corn syrup was because of corn overproduction which made corn syrup cheaper than sugar." -- Fred Linn

No, Fred, that was not the only reason. Another reason, a continuous reason, is federal policies that artificially increase the domestic price of cane sugar well above world market prices.

--------------

"AND, we can also ferment and distill sugar crops with little or no modification at all in facilities that process grain." -- Fred Linn

Technically, that is true. And if you attach pigs to hang gliders, they could fly. But is that likely to happen? No. All of the analyses I have seen suggest that corn and soybeans will remain the dominant crops in the U.S. corn belt. Farmers there are not likely to switch to growing cane, sugar beets or sorghum any time soon, if ever. And even if they did, producing those crops for ethanol would still mean diverting arable land to fuel.

There may be some potential to produce some new ethanol crops (like agave) on marginal lands, but the yields will be low and the costs high. Don't count on a big contribution from them.
Comment 94 of 113
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September 15, 2008
"I consider the argument that we should not use ethanol because we should feed the corn to starving people a particularly callous and uniformed statement. A diet of mainly corn which caused pellagra is an extremely horrible way to die, and was quite common in the Southern US a century ago." -- Fred Linn

Who is being callous in uninformed, Fred? So, you feel perfectly comfortable in driving up the price of corn 3-fold over a period of only two years, because those people who derive a large amount of their diet -- rural Mexicans, people living in sub-Saharan Africa -- are stupid. Native Mexicans have been eating corn for millennia. What are you offering them in the place of their corn?

And, yes, I realize that the corn used to make tortillas is white corn, not the same kind (yellow dent corn) used to make ethanol. But the markets are linked. As the price of yellow dent corn rises, livestock producers turn to white corn (if it is cheaper), thus performing an arbitrage function across the two markets.

Oh, and in case you were not aware, as explained by Don Mitchell at the World Bank, a rising price of corn, combined with the diversion of arable land to corn and oilseeds (for biodiesel) also has knock-on effects on the prices of other grains:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1233058
Comment 95 of 113
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September 15, 2008
Good article, and thread.
As a point of departure, it bears mentioning that coal provides 50% of current US electricity; nuclear almost 20%. Wind is ~1%. A recent report cited by AWEA offers that wind could supply as much as 20% of US electricity by 2030.
While laudable, it nevertheless leaves US groping about for the remaining 80% - and this is for the year 2030. Accordingly, efficiency and conservation remain our best options at this juncture.

Current US population: ~305 million. Forecast for 2050: 400 million. It is unlikely they will be content to make do with fewer cars, TVs, cell phones, powered lawn implements, hot tubs and other conveniences. I sense no mandate from the American people to relinquish the reliability of the existing, admittedly imperfect grid to the vagaries of combined wind and solar, fortified by rather modest quantities of wave, tidal, and geothermal power.

Rather, the consumer will expect nothing less than a seamless transition from FFs to RE, not unlike the seamless baton hand-off one expects during Olympic relay races. Until RE can deliver on the scale required to make that happen, prudence dictates an "all-of-the-above" approach to power generation.

Moreover, the consumer really isn't willing to pay more for RE. To their credit, environmentalists anticipated this hurdle, and stifled the development of all new conventional capacity (NIMBY rules). By reducing the glut of excess capacity, and thereby raising energy costs, RE's price disadvantage has been effectively eliminated.
But NIMBY has now morphed into BANANA: Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything. To make the point, I offer Cape Wind. Regrettably, they have proven more adept at blocking conventional generation, that at actually delivering RE.

To biofuels enthusiasts: The New York Times (12 September) reports a
European rollback of stated biofuels goals, citing concerns over food impacts and pollution.
Comment 96 of 113
September 15, 2008
Nothing more disheartening than raising your flintlock and finding an M1 Abrams in your sight. Sometimes its best to just fade back into the woods...
Comment 97 of 113
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September 16, 2008
Mr. Finley-

Can't tell if you're mocking my age, my military background, or both. :>)
While we're talking military stuff, those critics of US defense spending as woefully skewed towards defense of our "interests" in the Middle East are themselves off the mark (pun intended).

Over the years, we've managed to embroil ourselves in conflicts where we had "interests" (even if "only" oil), as well as were we didn't (VietNam). Such are the foibles and follies of empire.

Fledgling RE has much to recommend it; subsidies are warranted.
With respect to PV and geothermal, I prefer policies and programs which underwrite large installations at municipal sites (e.g., public schools and buildings, hospitals, etc.), as opposed to subsidizing PV for individual homeowners and big-box retailers. Subsidies for homeowners benefit a privileged few; subsidies for a few large corporations benefit entities which can be gone with shifting economic tides. I doubt still more subsidies to underwrite the further "malling" of America constitutes judicious use of taxpayer/ratepayer monies.

Municipalities on the other hand represent ALL the voters, and, in a manner of speaking, aren't going anywhere. Their fixed locations exactly correspond to the long payback/payoff times which are the hallmark of both PV and geothermal.

But which revenue model is best?
Do we raise taxes (and/or slash subsidies) to FF industries, or directly raise taxes on consumption of those FFs, through carbon/BTU taxes at each and every level, including higher taxes at the pump, and meter?

It's politically easy to "punish" those "corrupt" FF companies. It's also too easy to wash it all out at the other end with lower corporate tax structures, exemptions, and so forth. Higher taxes at the consumers level are the poiticians' proverbial "third rail". But high prices at the meter and pump have done more for efficiency and conservation than all the gas-bagging in-side the Washington beltway.
Comment 98 of 113
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September 16, 2008
Mr. Messier,

I could be wrong, but I think Russ's comment was addressed to Fred Linn, not you.

Cheers, Ron
Comment 99 of 113
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September 16, 2008
Mr. Steenblik -

You could very well be correct. My error.

Thanks, and CHEERS back at you.
Comment 100 of 113
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September 16, 2008
Ron---you seem to keep wanting me to defend biofuels on your criticism of corn based ethanol. FORGET CORN>we can make ethanol out of anything at all. We can make ethanol out of wood waste, and crop waste. Corn is where it all started in this country, but it is not where it will end. Range Fuels is building a 100 million gal/yr facility in Soperton GA that uses wood. Verenium has a facility in Louisianna to produce ethanol from cane baggasse. We can make ethanol from anything.

We can make biodiesel from saltwater algae and it is being done now.

The true culprit in food shortages is inflation. The value of the dollar is shrinking. We are paying for wars to secure oil reserves with deficit spending. We are running up a HUGE trade deficit to pay for imported oil. Oil is killing the US economy.

The only technology that is able to reverse this process is biofuels.
Comment 101 of 113
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September 16, 2008
"Ron--you seem to keep wanting me to defend biofuels on your criticism of corn based ethanol." -- Fred Linn

No I don't; I'd be happy if you didn't. YOU'RE the one who came to corn ethanol's defense, making all kinds of wild claims about it, including that the United States could triple corn-ethanol production by diverting corn from corn-sweetener production towards corn ethanol. (Wrong!)

------------------------

"FORGET CORN"

If only we could. But, contrary to your assertion that "most ethanol projects coming on line now are cellulose biomass derived" (also not true), what we are seeing more of is corn, corn, corn. Corn ethanol now has its own sub-mandate, which is set to grow to 15 billion gallons per year ... and remain at that level indefinitely. And corn ethanol will continue to benefit from border protection and a wide range of subsidies, including the federal volumetric ethanol excise tax (now 51 cents per gallon and, starting 1 January 2009, falling slightly to 45 cents per gallon).

---------------------

"[W]e can make ethanol out of anything at all. We can make ethanol out of wood waste, and crop waste."

Chemistry is not the issue. The issue is feedstock supply, soil sustainability and production costs -- still to be proven. Why should governments bet more on that horse than on other competing technologies?

---------------------

"We can make biodiesel from saltwater algae and it is being done now."

Yup, just drive down to your local 7-11 and fill 'er up. Again, the issue is not chemistry but costs.

---------------------

"The true culprit in food shortages is inflation. The value of the dollar is shrinking."

The weighted value of the dollar against other currencies did not shrink by anywhere near the amount that grain and oilseed prices rose between 2006 and 2008

----------------------

"The only technology that is able to reverse this process is biofuels."

So doth sayeth Fred.
Comment 102 of 113
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September 16, 2008
------"Why should governments bet more on that horse than on other competing technologies?"---------

Because it is already here, already proven, does everything we need, is a cost effective replacement for oil, reduces pollution, does not produce greenhouse gas effect, and involves minimal changes to the current infrastructure and ways of doing things. Ethanol was being commercially produced from logging and millwork waste as far back as the 1890's in both the US and Germany. Germany produced all of its fuel needs using Fischer-Tropsch process during WW2 and powered everything from Panzer tanks, to Me-262 Swallows, to V1 and V2 rockets with alcohol. Biodiesel was used in South Africa to keep the mines open and running.
Brazil right now meets their transportation fuel needs with ethanol grown on 2% of available farmland and has enough left over to be the world's largest ethanol exporter.

Name any other technology that can do the same things as biofuels.
Comment 103 of 113
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September 16, 2008
-------"The weighted value of the dollar against other currencies did not shrink by anywhere near the amount that grain and oilseed prices rose between 2006 and 2008"-------------

BTW---dollars are not value. Dollars are little green pieces of paper and promises. Little green pieces of paper and promises are not worth anything, only tangible goods are worth something. The value of commodities is not rising, the value of little green pieces of paper is falling. The reason is people are losing faith in the government's promises. Therefore, they get rid of little green pieces of paper to hold their wealth in commodities with tangible value.
Money has no value in itself, it is simply the medium of exchange. The medium of exchange is breaking down because of inflation due to deficit spending by the government and sending $$$ overseas to buy oil just to burn it.
Comment 104 of 113
September 16, 2008
Fred,

"......Because it is already here, already proven, does everything we need, is a cost effective replacement for oil, reduces pollution, does not produce greenhouse gas effect, and involves minimal changes to the current infrastructure and ways of doing things......."

Corn is here, not cellulosic or algae. It is not cost effective. It does not reduce pollution or green house gas. Blending it into the existing gas supply does involve minimal change, i.e. we can continue to use 18% efficient combustion engines. But, minimal change is not what the world needs right now.

"...Ethanol was being commercially produced from logging and millwork waste as far back as the 1890's in both the US and Germany..."

It is not being economically produced from those things today, which strongly suggests it wasn't in 1890 either.

"....Germany produced all of its fuel needs using Fischer-Tropsch process during WW2 ...."

It turned coal into liquid fuels as South Africa does today. It's filthy, expensive, and produces more CO2 than just burning coal. Using gasification technology to turn biomass into liquid fuels is much more expensive and as yet economically nonviable.

"....Brazil right now meets their transportation fuel needs with ethanol grown on 2% of available farmland and has enough left over to be the world's largest ethanol exporter. ...."

Because they use 1/6 less oil per person than us, they meet their needs with a combination of cane ethanol and domestic oil. Cane ethanol is the most efficient way to make it. We can't grow it in the farm belt. We can't emulate them for those two reasons. The rate of carbon sink destruction (second leading cause of global warming) in South America recently hit a record high. Any expansion of the cane industry will increase that rate of destruction.
Comment 105 of 113
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September 17, 2008
"Germany produced all of its fuel needs using Germany produced all of its fuel needs using Fischer-Tropsch process during WW2 and powered everything from Panzer tanks, to Me-262 Swallows, to V1 and V2 rockets with alcohol. Biodiesel was used in South Africa to keep the mines open and running. ... Name any other technology that can do the same things as biofuels." -- Fred Linn

Again, Fred, you are arguing technological possibilities, not economics. The International Energy Agency has looked at biomass-powered Fischer-Tropsch and concluded it was expensive and unlikely to see major technological improvements on the the back-end of the process (the part used by Germany and South Africa) precisely because it is a mature technology. Improvements can be made on the front end (preparing the biomass feedstock), but that will only help reduce the cost to something above the cost of using coal as a feedstock.

Combustion of biomass for heat or electricity IS proven, and is in many cases cheaper than using fossil fuels (especially once the price of carbon is taken into account), hence its use is expanding. Study after study shows that using biomass for heat or electricity is more ecomical and has a better energy balance than converting it to liquid fuels. That electricity then can be used to power trains, trams, electric motorcycles and bicycles and, in the future, plug-in passenger cars and perhaps eventually fully electric vehicles. For long-range heavy-goods vehicles, electric batteries are unlikely to do the trick. But fuel cells might.

Fred: you have said earlier that you are in favor of eliminating all mandates and production and consumption subsidies for fuels. (I think neither of us are debating R&D subsidies here.) If you really mean that, then you should be open to the notion that other ways of reducing fossil fuel use and addressing transport needs should be given a fair chance of competing as well. It is not just a case of liquid biofuels OR fossil fuels.
Comment 106 of 113
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September 17, 2008
"BTW---dollars are not value. Dollars are little green pieces of paper and promises. Little green pieces of paper and promises are not worth anything, only tangible goods are worth something. The value of commodities is not rising, the value of little green pieces of paper is falling." -- Fred Linn

Fred, you argued that the decline of the U.S. dollar was the main, perhaps the only cause, of rising commodity prices. When I argued that it was only a small explanatory variable, you come back with a lecture on the true value of paper money. I guess supply and demand don't count for anything in your books. If paper money were losing its value against ALL tangible assets, then the dollar price of real estate should be rising, not falling. There is, of course, some real estate that has appreciated ... greatly: prime farmland in the corn belt.
Comment 107 of 113
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September 17, 2008
Real estate only appreciates in value as long as there are people who want to buy it, and they can afford it, not only in terms of total price but also in terms of the availability of credit and the cost of that credit.

Have you not even looked at a paper or watched a news report in the last six months? Banks are failing left and right. The government just had to bail out the two largest sources mortgage funding and exchange--Freddy Mac and Fanny Mae.

The main loss of value in the real estate market is single family homes-----because inflation is eating up the ability to afford them for many people, and the availability of credit to purchase them has gotten more expensive. The number of foreclosures is skyrocketing and there are some areas with as much as 30-50% of homes in foreclosure.

The rise in price in farmland should not come as any surprise. Arable land has always been a prime hedge vehicle in times of inflation. And in times of inflation, it takes more dollars to buy anything, land included.
Comment 108 of 113
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September 17, 2008
---------"Fred: you have said earlier that you are in favor of eliminating all mandates and production and consumption subsidies for fuels. (I think neither of us are debating R&D subsidies here.) If you really mean that, then you should be open to the notion that other ways of reducing fossil fuel use and addressing transport needs should be given a fair chance of competing as well. It is not just a case of liquid biofuels OR fossil fuels."---------------

Ron----where did I ever say that I oppose electric vehicles or any other choices? I don't oppose them, they simply do not exist. Electric trams and trolleys are common throughout Europe. They are convenient, clean and economical. Unfortunately, they are limited to only those routes where the overhead electrical wires are. Converting to electrical would require an all new system. Very expensive. Far cheaper to simply fuel the busses we have with biodiesel. That would require no change at all to the current systems, and no changes to the busses themselves. Just fill them up with biodiesel instead of petroleum. Biodiesel production does not rely on Fischer-Tropsh at all. The algae is simply grown, dried and the oil is pressed out, it can be used straight as produced---although it is economical to remove some oil components with higher value than fuel alone, such as glyceryn which is a base component of thousands of industrial products from lipstick to dynamite.

Hydrogen poses the smanuame problems-minus the overhead lines limitations. Expensive, no infrastructure, complete new production, manufacturing, storage, supply and distribution needed. Even if we had a viable system plan it would be 20-30 years before any real results would be seen.

Biodiesel and ethanol could be set up and running within 2 to 5 years and pretty much replace most of our oil needs within ten years.
Comment 109 of 113
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September 18, 2008
"Real estate only appreciates in value as long as there are people who want to buy it, and they can afford it, not only in terms of total price but also in terms of the availability of credit and the cost of that credit." -- Fred Linn

Well, good. At least you give credit to the laws of supply and demand.

******************

"Biodiesel and ethanol could be set up and running within 2 to 5 years and pretty much replace most of our oil needs within ten years."

And at what cost? I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Comment 110 of 113
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September 18, 2008
------------"And at what cost? I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree."--------

Range Fuels is building a plant in Soperton GA to produce 100 million gal/yr of ethanol from wood. The cost of the plant is $385 million. It would be possible to build 4-6 such plants for the cost of just 1 offshore oil platform. And those plants would be up and running LONG before the offshore rig was even ready to put to sea, within two years.
Other costs are minimal. Mandate Flex Fuel vehicles. One half of the vehicles Chrysler will build next year will be FF, they are already in manufacture and use. FlexFuel vehicles cost the same as conventional vehicles. Diesel needs no modification at all.
The fuel storage, distribution and marketing system needs very little modification. The main problem gasoline is not as good a solvent as ethanol. It leaves behind sludge, varnishes and precipitates that the ethanol will take into solution. Tanks, pipelines etc. need to be cleaned out well before you can put ethanol in them. As the volume of ethanol grows, we'll have more capacity to handle ethanol without contamination from gasoline. The only reason this is a problem is that the ethanol picks up polluntants it would not otherwise contain. Petroleum oil is dirty.

No changes or only minimal changes to vehicles(all gasoline vehicles can use up to 30% ethanol without problem). Since ethanol will be produced locally in communities(it can be made from almost anything, anywhere)---it only makes sense to have many small production facilities spread throughout the market to cut down transportation costs. This will make shipping by pipeline not necessary for the most part.

Compared to petroleum, the use of biofuels will cost much less overall when the production and supply system is up and running. The difference will be the widespread availability of raw materials.
Comment 111 of 113
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September 18, 2008
footnote----E-85 is STILL 15% petroleum gasoline. Blended to enhance starting cold weather conditions. However, using only 15% or our current usage would take us a LONG way into the future----and there are also other blending alternatives, such as Butanol, so switching to E-85 is a good choice, even in the long run.
Comment 112 of 113
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November 10, 2008
Just google "hydrogen hoax".
Comment 113 of 113
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