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A New Environment for Biofuels

By Stephen Lacey, Staff Writer
August 13, 2008   |   47 Comments

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"But where were the skeptical scientists, politicians and journalists earlier, when ethanol was first being promoted in Congress?"

-- Christine Russell, Columbia Journalism Review
47 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 47
August 13, 2008
Agave can put an end to the Food VS Ethanol crisis. It produces 6X more ethanol than corn at around half the price and grows in semi-arid land, not suitable for agriculture. (Please read REW's Andrew K Burger article on Agave to Ethanol production at http://www.renewableenergyworld).

Oil companies spend a lot of money trying to stop ethanol production, but it's here to stay. Gas accounts for 75% of the carcinogens that humans emit to the atmosphere ("The Ethanol Fact Book" published by the Clean Fuels Development Coalition. Please read it http://www.cleanfuelsdc.org/pubs/documents/2003EthanolFactBook.pdf
or the executive summary www.cleanfuelsdc.org/pubs/documents/EthanolFactBookExecSum.pdf).
By adding a 10% ethanol to that gas, the carcinogens emissions reduce from 25 to 30%, as well as the other pollutants. Any given day gas contains up to 400 toxic substances. It's the trash disposal mechanism for all the toxics produced by the oil refineries.

We, the people, want a healthier fuel. Etanol is it!
Comment
2 of 47
August 13, 2008
We the people should be able to fuel our cars with 100% ethanol. Just like Brazil. Give me a break...10% ethanol blend sucks.. This article makes me so angry. Our congress is so ignorant! Just who controls the EPA anyway??? I like the comments by Arturo, but ethanol is not the best fuel. I have seen the hydrogen powered cars. Any motor can run on Hydrogen.
Food , is getting expensive . WAKE UP.
Comment
3 of 47
August 14, 2008
Industrial Hemp is the answer!
Comment
4 of 47
August 14, 2008
Ethanol is a small step in the right direction, but must be replaced as quickly with possible with 2nd generation biofuels that approach the carbon neutral idea much more closely. 30 -35 MPG are laughable. An obvious olution is to follow Europe's lead and start replacing intrisically less efficient spark ignition engines with diesel engines. Modern diesels are in large part far cleaner than today's latest gas engine offerings.

It is not uncommon for modern ULTRACLEAN diesel vehicles to get 50 MPH plus - take a look at the diesel Mini-Cooper and the diesel Toyota Yaris. These are just two of dozens of clean modern diesels available today, but banned from the U.S. and in particular California. Many, if not a majority of these clean diesels are made in the U.S. for export only.

The public is being sold obselete automobile technology, bechause the weak minded environmentalists don't do their homework and think diesels are filthy (not having seen a modern diesel ) and are playing right into the hands of the oil companies who don't want to sell a fuel that gets up to 40% fuel economy over a gas engine with similar power output and the dealers who don't want more reliable vehicles - no ignition system = better reliablitiy and less maintanence. 50% of a new cars profit to the dealer is in after sale maintanence and repair. There is no incentive to provide more reliable cars, such as electric vehicles.

Ethanol is high hygroscopic (sucks moisture out of the air), reduces fuel economy, must be shipped by tanker, due to the hygroscopic problem and is inferior to biodiesel produced by a number of ways.

Butanol fuel provides a drop-in replacement for gasoline and obviates the need for ethanol. The process to produce biobutanol in industrial scale has existed since the 1920s
Biodiesel (especially butyl soyate) or butanol from algae, wood and other cellulose waste are a far better solution.

Ethanol is in large part just a pork program .
Comment
5 of 47
August 15, 2008
I blame the entire worlds military complex. I have no standing support for US or Russian military. The point is it is clear that the old regional cold war, has graduated into terrorism for oil resources. S.Georgia did start the shelling, and Russia responded. The US trained soldiers in S. Georgia. When is the idea about war going to stop is my question to the world? Why the hyper ill conceived debunked ideas of attaining power is the only outcome? Certainly the Oil War would end if the leaders in the world started the AOGO "Algae Oil Growing Organization" instead of OPEC "Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries". When we have an increase to the supply of Oil, regional conflicts and war for resources will end. It is the fear they have in not having enough energy to keep their people and economies healthy.
Really this war on Terrorism is a debunked crusade that has nothing to do with the causes to terrorism. If America was doing things that promoted an end to terror instead of using terror and force, we would find terror would not be on the minds of the people. People react in violence when they see no hope in the future and strike back as a final farewell. This mindset needs to stop. Just recently a guy stormed the Democratic Headquaters and shot the Democratic chariman. This violence is going on everywhere in the world. To include Beijing where a chinese hoodlum stabbed and killed an American family who were there for the Olympics.
When we have resources that we grow together as a world body, no one can claim we don't have enough or claim we are driven to violence because of the high cost of doing things. This is NOT a USA issue. It is Global.
We need to put our value toward working to end violence in the world. This is the real message of this century. We need to jointly work in cooperation to provide resources that help the people. It is not about government ideals, or philosophies. Its about stopping the violence and making abundant energy resources.
Comment
6 of 47
August 15, 2008
Stephen Lacey writes: "Along with oil, the price of staples such as corn and soy have fallen significantly since June. But they remain relatively high compared with the last few years. Although it is been shown that ethanol is a fairly small player in the rising price of staples, ... "

No, Stephen, it has NOT been shown that ethanol is a small player in the rising price of staples. What has been shown is that ethanol has been a relatively small factor in the rise in the U.S. consumer price index for food (CPI), which tracks the $1.1 trillion (with a "t") spent each year by households on food -- both eaten in the home and eaten outside the home, including restaurants. When one measures food expenditure in that way, it is no surprise that the rising price of grain contributes only a small portion of overall expenditure on food.

But if one narrows one's focus to staples -- particularly food commodities consumed by people in the least-developed countries, where household expenditure on food accounts for 50% or more of their disposable income -- then the effects of diverting grains to ethanol have been significant. Depending on which analysis you favor (IFPRI, IMF, OECD, World Bank), biofuels (and related market developments) have accounted for at least 1/3 to as much as 2/3 of the recent rises in the prices of food commodities (measured either at the farm gate or at an international wholesale reference price).

Grain production costs have increased as a result of higher oil prices, to be sure. But if one looks at the USDA cost surveys, rising oil and fertilizer prices (some of which is due to rising natural gas prices, some of which to increased demand, in part thanks to biofuels) would have increased costs by around $1 per bushel, not $4.
Comment
7 of 47
August 15, 2008
I love it. There are so many ways to solve this problem it unbelievable. It appears everyone thiks their way is the best. Lets drill aal we can right here and then give inventives to every reasonable technology out there without interference from congress and the oil companies. The big oil companies will try to protect their own interest. If every technology is given a chanch, the ones that are the most effecient and least expensive will ultimately win and it will happen much faster. Actually, I believe that more electricity from every non polluting technology, ie solar, wind, clean coal, nuclear and all the rest coupled with a long range, easy to refuel electric car will be the best overall but who really knows. Competition for profit will bring out the American genius we are known for. We should not let special interest control this as congress sometimes thinks they know whats best for us. I suggest we vote for everything.
Comment
8 of 47
August 15, 2008
ADM has 15 billion gallons of ethanol from corn by 2022 written into the 2007 Renewable Fuel Standard. That needs to change, and hopefully that will happen when the new administration takes over. Corn is a lousy feedstock,a terrible polluter, and a big user of scarce water. The commenter who mentioned agave has the right idea, use a sugar-based feedstock. Sweet sorghum produces much more ethanol than corn from its stalk, leaves the grain to be used for food purposes, and only uses half the water of corn! We don't need to create food shortages around the world to produce all the ethanol we need. And we don't need to use soybeans to produce biodiesel elither. There is no moral excuse for using food for fuel.
Comment
9 of 47
August 15, 2008
If the statement about ethanol being a pork project is about subsidies, then I agree with you there, our government shouldn't be subsidizing ¾'s of what they do. If your statement is saying that we shouldn't be looking into ethanol as an alternative fuel, then I disagree you. Ethanol is something that every community in the United States can produce and manufacture for their own needs and can be made from many more sources than biodiesel can be. With time and experience we can become pretty experienced making ethanol, and I really feel that when the harder times are here, ethanol will have to be used because it is more available to make than biodiesel. Besides there are so many by-products to ethanol that it makes it much more advantageous to pursue than biodiesel.

I also don't agree with feeding the world. That's not the problem, feeding the world is a surface issue and not the root problem. The governments are the problem and they need to change. We ship tons and tons of food to these dictatorships only to have them given to the warlords, etc - what a crock.
Comment
10 of 47
August 15, 2008
Butanol from algae is the solution.
Comment
11 of 47
August 15, 2008
The market will not be "oversupplied" with ethanol until everyone is driving with E-85.
THEN we need to replace the 15% petroleum in E-85.

Celia----I like algae as a source too. However, biodiesel seems to me to be a far more viable product from algae.

Anyone out there familiar with Butanol? Would butanol make a substiture for the petroleum content in E-85?
Comment
12 of 47
August 15, 2008
--------"Ethanol is in large part just a pork program ."--------

That is why it started in the first place--to make high protien animal feed, the ethanol was just a by product that needed to be taken off.

So you didn't have herds of drunk pigs and cattle on your hands.
Comment
13 of 47
August 15, 2008
-------"Ethanol is a small step in the right direction, but must be replaced as quickly with possible with 2nd generation biofuels that approach the carbon neutral idea much more closely."-----------

Carbon is not the problem at all. Carbon is the natural life cycle. It is carbon that is dug or pumped up out of the ground and released into the atmosphere in huge quantities is the problem.
Comment
14 of 47
August 15, 2008
-------"Ethanol is high hygroscopic (sucks moisture out of the air), reduces fuel economy, must be shipped by tanker, due to the hygroscopic problem and is inferior to biodiesel produced by a number of ways."-------

If that happens, you just add alcohol until the water is diluted enough that it ignites. Same thing as proofing with gunpowder. Not a big problem at all.
Comment
15 of 47
August 15, 2008
------"Just who controls the EPA anyway???"-------

George W. Bush

--------"ADM has 15 billion gallons of ethanol from corn by 2022 written into the 2007 Renewable Fuel Standard. That needs to change, and hopefully that will happen when the new administration takes over. Corn is a lousy feedstock,a terrible polluter, and a big user of scarce water. "------------

Currently about 20% of the corn crop is used in making feed/ethanol. About 40% of the crop is used to produce high fructose syrup used mainly in soda pop and candy. Divert the fructose portion of the crop to ethanol/feed we triple production---and the sugar needed for soda pop and candy can easily be produced from cane or beets.

In ALL types of farming, versitility and substitution are important. A diversified agricultural and processing capability is vital to prevent disruptions due to weather, accidents, disease, insects or other problems. A diversivied system is a safer system. It is in our own best interest to produce raw materials from as many diversified sources as we can, that means ethanol from corn, sorghum, cane, beets,agave, wood and anything else we can make it out of. Something bad happening to any one source would have less effect on total output if we have many different sources.
Comment
16 of 47
August 15, 2008
Septembers National Geographic's article on soils put Terra Preta soils / Biochar front and center.,

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/09/soil/mann-text

By Charles Mann, of "1491" fame,

Biochar, the modern version of an ancient Amazonian agricultural practice called Terra Preta (black earth), is gaining widespread credibility as a way to address world hunger, climate change, rural poverty, deforestation, and energy shortages… SIMULTANEOUSLY!

This technology represents the most comprehensive, low cost, and productive approach to long term stewardship and sustainability.Terra Preta Soils a process for Carbon Negative Bio fuels, massive Carbon sequestration, 10X Lower Methane & N2O soil emissions, and 3X Fertility Too. Every 1 ton of Biomass yields 1/3 ton Charcoal for soil Sequestration.

Indeed, Dr. James Hansen, NASA's top Atmospheric authority, is now placing it in the center stage of pro-active solutions for the climate crisis.

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0804/0804.1126.pdf

I hope you will come to share my passion in getting the word out on the wonderful solutions provided by TP soils.
I'm sort of the TP list (and data base at REPP-CREST) cub reporter, most all my list postings, under shengar@aol.com, are news items, collaborative work, lobbying efforts with government, writers and journals.
http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/?q=node

The new Yahoo Biochar discussion group;

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/b...guid=122501696
Comment
17 of 47
August 15, 2008
Another fallacy-----there must be ten thousand studies etc. that are publicized and promoted as "proof" that biofuels will not work. They almost always start with a basicly false idea and then look for "facts" to support the theory. Then they are presented as documented facts when they are still merely speculations.

Example: Everyone will starve if we use bofuels.---well, we've been making and using biofuels for over 25 years and no one worried about starving until the last six months or so. When the price of commodities rose. The price of commodities rose because the value of the dollar is falling. Government borrowing to support war spending is essentially cranking up the printing presses and flooding new money into the economy. With no increase in goods or services, this means more $$$ floating around with fewer goods or services, it takes more money to buy the same thing. The government doesn't want people to figure out that THEY are the cause. So they change the way that inflation is figured. They take out the most important things that people buy. Food and fuel. (and say it is because you can substitute something cheaper). How can you substitute something cheaper for food? Like what? Rocks? How can you substitute something cheaper for oil when it has been entirely government policy to keep everything on a fossil fuel/nuclear basis for the last 30 years?
The world hunger scare started with speculation in the rice market in Asia. No one I know of makes ethanol out of rice, except the Japanesse, and that is only to drink. This speculation spread to other crop commodities. Why are people so quick to say it is speculation on oil commodities that is causing high prices, and ignore the basic fact of the matter, oil is running out. And then they turn around and will catagorically deny there is speculation in the grain markets. These are all rationalizations.
Comment
18 of 47
August 15, 2008
Making corn with petroleum based fuels, fertilizer and pesticides causes more greenhouse gas production than it saves. Well, if the amount of petroleum that you need to use weights more than the amount of corn you use--then it would. However, it you use that amount carbon weight in fuel to produce a lesser amount of carbon weight in product----it would be too expensive to grow the corn. Any farmer does not need all kinds of fancy figures and statistics to tell him that.
If using petroleum to grow corn or any other crop contributes to greenhouse gas----then use biofuels to grow your crops. It does exactly the same thing as petroleum.
If fertilizer, pesticides and herbicides made from petroleum contribute to global warming---then make them out of some other feedstock. Petroleum is not the only thing that can be used.

There are other examples, but those are the biggies on the scene.
Comment
19 of 47
August 17, 2008
---------"Imagine a sugarcane type crop that grows in the desert (along with desert mirrors for virtually unlimited electrical generation). "----------

We have that already. PetroSun is growing saltwater algae right now in shallow seawater holding ponds in Rio Hondo TX. The abundant sunlight and heat cause the algae grow many times faster than it would in its normal environment, the ocean. The algae produce and store as much as 51% oil. Then they are harvested and pressed to remove the oil. The oil can be used directly as biodiesel, no further refining is required. B-100 biodiesel can be used in any diesel engine with no modification needed. Each gallon of biodiesel replaces the need to import 2.3 gallons of petroleum crude.
Comment
20 of 47
August 17, 2008
Fred: Please explain how each gallon of biodiesel replaces 2.3 gallons of petroleum crude. At worst, there is a loss of 0.15 gallons of crude oil in turning crude petroleum into petroleum diesel. And biodiesel still requires 0.1 gallon of methanol (refined from natural gas) for every gallon of the stuff.

You have provided no information on the economics of PetroSun's operation. I'm ure somebody could produce high yields of biodiesel from ear wax, but the economics would probably be pretty poor.
Comment
21 of 47
August 17, 2008
Stephen,

Women and children in Haiti are eating mud cakes to kill hunger pangs because they can't afford real food. You wrote this article to assist the Renewable Fuels Association, which has publicly called for help in launching a PR campaign in an attempt to counter the public backlash against what has turned out to be not only an environmental disaster, but also a humanitarian one. The RFA has one goal and that is to butter their bread with biofuels. Surely you've seen the multiple peer-reviewed science papers by world class researchers demonstrating that these fuels are worse for global warming than the fuels they replace, for multiple reasons. How about the just released UN report showing that biofuels have played a major role in raising "global" food prices? As the world's leading corn exporter, how can stuffing an area of corn equal in size to Indiana into our gas tanks, to increase our fuel supply less than 2%, not have a major impact on food prices outside the United States?

"…Concerns about the environmental and social impact of food-based fuels were being vocalized by certain groups, but they were largely drowned out by the exuberance from policy makers and consumers…"

Most environmental groups have finally concluded that this was a big mistake. Consumers are also not real exuberant. Seattle's local biodiesel distributors are heading for bankruptcy. One has lost half of his customers. I recently attended a protest at another biodiesel station and they had only one customer in two hours. King County has stopped using biodiesel because of concerns about the science and especially about price. The big biodiesel refiner here is staving off bankruptcy by taking the dollar per gallon blending subsidy from American taxpayers, using it to buy food oil from foreign countries, and then shipping the resulting biodiesel to Europe.
Comment
22 of 47
August 18, 2008
Ronald----according to the DOE study comparing the energy requirements to produce various fuels it takes 1.23 million BTU's to produce ! million BTU's of gasoline. Therefore when you put 10 gallons of gasoline in your car tank, you are actually consuming 22.3 gallons of crude oil. This is allowing for production, transportation(1/2 way around the world from the arctic or middle east) and refining. This compares with ethanol which requires .73 M BTU to produce 1 M BTU. Diesel would be only slightly less than gasoline----the production and transportation expenses are fixed for either gasoline or diesel, the refining difference is minimal between the two.
Biofuels do not need refining at all. Although biofuel can be used directly as produced---sometimes transesterifcation refining is done to remove components that have a greater market value than the oil would as a fuel. This does not affect the fuel value of the oil. Glycerin is the major component that is removed. It is a major base component in a huge range of products from lipstick to dynamite. Alcohol is added to both biodiesel AND petroleum diesel to resist gelling in cold conditions. Ethanol works exactly the same as methanol----methanol is only used because it is produced from the petroleum the refinery already has. The thing they do---keep the fuel liquid in cold conditions, is exactly the same.
A friend of mine has a trucking comany that collects used cooking oil from restaruants which they use directly in their trucks as diesel fuel. The total refining they do amounts to pouring the used oil through cheesecloth filters to remove any solid particulates. It goes directly into the truck tanks. It does occassionally make some interesting smelling exhaust---that smells like french fries.

.
Comment
23 of 47
August 18, 2008
PetroSun produces 4.4 million gallons/yr of biodiesel from 1180 acres of algae ponds in Rio Hondo TX. There has not been an announcement of a definte use of the remaining biomass. Possibilities include, pelletizing and using as food for fish, shrimp, crabs and other sea life--drying and burning directly, or ethanol production. The site that PetroSun is using was an unused shrimp farm. I don't have any figures on the economics yet---but I think I can safely say that raising pond scum in an unused shrimp farm has to be more economical that trying to get oil from 3-5 miles down in solid rock or the bottom of the ocean----transport it 10,000 miles(and then have to send the ship back dead head to get more) and refine your product out of tar after you get it here.

The ethanol energy return is figured on corn. It includes the assumption that production input is petroleum. Raise crops using biodiesel(most farm equipment is already diesel) and the numbers would be even better
Comment
24 of 47
August 18, 2008
-------"The juice from the wind and solar can be "converted" into ethanol if there is enough land to grow so much of it."--------fireofenergy

If we use renewable energy to produce biofuels, wind or solar as foe suggests, we would have 100% solar energy in liquid form.

Plants are nature's original solar cells. They capture energy from the sun and store it. It is stored as chemical bonds in the sugars, starches, and oils the plants produce. In the carbon/sun life cycle of the earth, running a truck with biodiesel fuel is no different than pulling a cart with oxen. You can just go a lot faster, and pull a bigger cart. The truck is part of the natural life/energy cycle exactly the same as the oxen.
Comment
25 of 47
August 18, 2008
Russ---the real cause of global hunger is speculation and hording, primarily in rice. Nobody uses rice to make biofuels.

The other cause in the rise of food prices, is inflation. The price of commodities is going up because the value of the dollar is going down.

This inflation is caused by deficit spending to support a war over oil assetts, and a trade deficit to import oil just to burn it. The US is literally burning up the equity we have built up in this country. This is what it is costing us to continue to use oil. And the cost in the future is only going to get MORE expensive very rapidly.
Comment
26 of 47
August 18, 2008
Fred: First, you referred to biodiesel, not ethanol. I repeat what you wrote: "Each gallon of biodiesel replaces the need to import 2.3 gallons of petroleum crude." Yet you come back with numbers relating to gasoline.

Second, your math is screwy. Even if one assumed a one-to-one volumetric equivalence between biodiesel and petroleum diesel (actually, a gallon of biodiesel has about 91% of the BTUs of a gallon of petroleum diesel), and assume the ratios are the same for diesel as for gasoline, all one could say is that a 10 gallons of biodiesel displaces 12.3 gallons of petroleum diesel, not 22.3 gallons. And that is not counting the extra petroleum diesel consumed to run the farm machinery required to plant and harvest the soybeans, nor the fossil fuels used to produce the methanol used in turning plant oils into biodiesel.
Comment
27 of 47
August 19, 2008
Fred,

There is no doubt that biofuels have been exacerbating global food prices:

http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2008/7/31/95925/2107

The DOE study misstating the energy balance of fossil fuels you refer to had an error in it. The author (Wang) admitted as much but that fact hasn't stopped the urban legend from being spread :

http://i-r-squared.blogspot.com/2006/04/energy-balance-for-ethanol-better-than.html

Algae based biodiesel would not use arable cropland and would therefore be immune to these critiques. Unfortunately, it is about as close to economic viability as fusion nuclear:

http://i-r-squared.blogspot.com/2007/05/algal-biodiesel-fact-or-fiction.html
Comment
28 of 47
August 19, 2008
I take those numbers from the DOE study of the comparative costs of producing 1Mega BTU equivalent from petroleum versus ethanol. The costs are, ethanol 730,000 BTU to produce 1 Mega BTU; petroleum 1.23 Mega BTU to produce 1 Mega BTU.

The production energy cost to produce 10 gallons of gasoline is 1.23x10=12.3 10 gallons(you put in your car) + 12.3 (required to produce it) = 22.3(amount of crude oil needed to put ten gallons of gasoline in your car)

This was assuming the corn was cultivated with petroleum base fuels, fetilizer, pesticides, herbicides etc. If you use biofuels and non petroleum base chemicals(easy enough to do)---the number for corn goes down. Many farmers are already doing this now. They are making corn oil on site(on their farm) from the corn they already have; to use in their diesel equipment to grow more corn. Depending on variety you get 2-4 gallons of oil per bushel of oil. Corn sells for less than $6 per bushel. They are getting oil they can substitute straight gallon for gallon with petroleum diesel. Petroleum diesel costs ~$5/gallon---so the corn they make biodiesel from brings them $10-$20 per bushel. They can still sell the shell mash leftover to make ethanol with, the yeast ferment the starch in the corn---the oil does not enter into the fermentation process at all.

BTW---what is leftover after the mash is fermented and the ethanol is taken off is DDG. High protien animal feed. This can be fed to cattle, pigs, chickens or almost any other type of domestic animal. If you feed your cat or dog dry kibble, you are probably feeding at least some DDG to it.

Alcohol is added to diesel fuel to reduce gelling and reduce viscosity at lower temperatures. This is done on both petroleum and biodiesel. Since crops are not grown at the temperatures requiring conditioner be added---this is not done. Ethanol works just fine as a conditioner, there is no need for methanol.
Comment
29 of 47
August 19, 2008
--------"Algae based biodiesel would not use arable cropland and would therefore be immune to these critiques. Unfortunately, it is about as close to economic viability as fusion nuclear:"-------------

PetroSun is right now producing 4.4 million gal/yr of biodiesel from saltwater algae in 1180 acres of seawater holding ponds in Rio Hondo, Texas. There are other facilities being being planned for desert regions in Mexico and California.

Biofuels represent less than 2% of our fuel needs now. If people are eating mud to stave off starvation in Haiti, it is because of oil, not biofuels.
President Bush requested $900 Billion for war funding to support a war to secure oil reserve rights for American oil companies. When he finally did act to do something about world starvation, he requested $770 Million. This makes world hunger .0086% as important as oil company profits to Mr. Bush. THAT is why there is a food crisis.

Brazil is currently producing 80% of its transportation fuel needs with ethanol made from sugar cane grown on just 2% of available cropland. They not only produce enough to supply their own needs, they have enough left over to be the largest ethanol exporter in the world. If Brazil can do it, we can do it.
Comment
30 of 47
August 19, 2008
Russ---I don't see anything in the blog opinion you posted about the energy cost to move crude oil from where it is produced to where it is refined. There seems to be no allowance for transportation. This is a huge cost. Oil both foreign and domestic is moved great distances. Either from South America, Africa, Middle East or the Arctic. Oil that comes from the Middle East has to go around the Cape of Good Hope and up the west coast of Africa, across the Atlantic and Gulf of Mexico, a round about route of close to 20,000 miles---tankers are too big to get through the Suez Canal. Then, they go back empty---there is no suitable return cargo for them to carry. They Dead Head back. 40,000 miles for one shipment of oil. That is almost going around the world twice. It shouldn't take a lot of fancy figuring to see that this is not efficient. Oil from Prudhoe is a little bit better---but not a whole lot. It travels by pipeline part of the way, but this is more energy inefficient.
Comment
31 of 47
August 19, 2008
-----"Look at the Minnesota Department of Agriculture claim again: "the energy yield of ethanol is (1.34/0.74) or 81 percent greater than the comparable yield for gasoline". If the energy balance was really this good for ethanol and that bad for gasoline, why would anyone ever make gasoline? "---------------------------------
Because of massive previous investment in a dead end product. We are coming to the dead end now.


--------"Where would the economics be?"--------

In subsidies, loopholes, write offs, giveaway lease arrangements, grants, special favors, no bid contracts, awards, production incentives, etc. etc.
Nobody even knows for sure how much, 50 years of lobbying , corruption, bribes, pay offs, influence peddling and just good ole buddies scratching each others backs all written into law with no fanfare, photo op bill signing sessions with proud announcements to the public about whose hands are dipping in the till. I've seen estimates as high as $350-400 Billion/yr for the energy industry as a whole---almost all of it to oil/coal/nuclear.

-------" Why would ethanol need subsidies to compete?"--------

It doesn't. Get rid of all the oil subsidies and let the price of oil float to the true economic cost. At $14/gal. people won't even look at oil as long as a hot horseshoe.

---------" It should be clear that the proponents in this case are promoting false information."--------------

The false information is coming from people with large investments in fossil fuels. If biofuels become widespread they stand to lose huge amounts of capital investment. So they look to Washington, and they found the best friends that money can buy.
Comment
32 of 47
August 19, 2008
Fred,

"...They are making corn oil on site(on their farm) from the corn they already have; to use in their diesel equipment..."

I'm sure you could count the number of farmers actually doing that on one hand (assuming any really are) and you can't burn ethanol in a diesel engine.

Read the links I sent you. Biofuels are clearly a major contriubutor to high global food prices, along with high oil prices. There are five major contriubutors to high food prices and biofuels are in that list.

"...The false information is coming from people with large investments in fossil fuels...."

The internet breeds conspiracy theorists. Most false information at this point is coming from people with investments in biofuels, both financial and emotional. The oil companies, or companies that look and act just like them, will eventually own all biofuel production. None of the information supplied to you is false and none of it came from oil companies.
Comment
33 of 47
August 19, 2008
I don't know of too many people who eat pond scum and dead tree limbs.
Comment
34 of 47
August 20, 2008
--------""...They are making corn oil on site(on their farm) from the corn they already have; to use in their diesel equipment..."

I'm sure you could count the number of farmers actually doing that on one hand (assuming any really are) and you can't burn ethanol in a diesel engine."------------

Corn oil can be used directly in any diesel engine with no modification whatever. Any vegetable oil can be used. Rape seed oil is commonly used in Europe.(cannola oil) Discarded cooking oil is collected and used in diesel engines rooutinely. I have a friend who does. He collects discarded oil from fast food restaruants, filters it to remove solid impurities and pours it directly into his truck tanks. He's been doing this for several years, and still drives the same trucks. This is what diesel engines were orignally designed to use by Rudolf Diesel.

Internal combustion engines were first designed to run on ethanol. Gasoline had not been invented yet. The Model T Ford started the mass produced car industry we have today. Henry Ford designed the Model T to run on ethanol. It first came out in 1908, 100 years ago.
Comment
35 of 47
August 21, 2008
-----"Women and children in Haiti are eating mud cakes to kill hunger pangs because they can't afford real food"
The best crop commonly used for ethanol is sugar cane. Haiti has the perfect climate to grow sugar cane. Maybe Russ and Jim Berry could teach these poor people how to cash in on biofuels and then they could replace their mud cakes with steaks.
This applies to many areas of the 3rd world. Biofuels should be an opportunity for countries with limited natural resources for fuel but large amounts of agriculture.
Comment
36 of 47
August 21, 2008
In Brazil, they make biodiesel out of Tucuma palm seeds. The fruit is edible, but the seeds are scooped out and discarded--similar to a cantaloupe. The seeds are dried and pressed to remove the oil. The oil can then be used in any diesel engine without any further refining.

They have their food and biofuel from the same plant.
Comment
37 of 47
August 22, 2008
Fred writes, "The production energy cost to produce 10 gallons of gasoline is 1.23x10=12.3 10 gallons (you put in your car) + 12.3 (required to produce it) = 22.3 (amount of crude oil needed to put ten gallons of gasoline in your car).

No, Fred, it doesn't work that way. What it means is that if you start with 1.23 gallons of crude petroleum, after processing you will be left with 1.0 gallons of product. What you are suggesting is a loss in energy and material during the extracting, processing and transport of petroleum that would be breathtakingly inefficient indeed. It would also imply a price for diesel that would be twice the current price. Do the math (if you can): A barrel of crude oil at $130 is equal to 3.10 per gallon. Has diesel been selling at more than $6 per gallon, before tax? It would have to, if your figures were correct.

Like I said: your math is screwy. Either that or you are willing to throw out any numbers that you think will put the biofuels industry in a good light, hoping that nobody will notice.
Comment
38 of 47
August 25, 2008
------"
No, Fred, it doesn't work that way. What it means is that if you start with 1.23 gallons of crude petroleum, after processing you will be left with 1.0 gallons of product. What you are suggesting is a loss in energy and material during the extracting, processing and transport of petroleum that would be breathtakingly inefficient indeed. It would also imply a price for diesel that would be twice the current price. Do the math (if you can): A barrel of crude oil at $130 is equal to 3.10 per gallon. Has diesel been selling at more than $6 per gallon, before tax? It would have to, if your figures were correct."-------

Ronald----no, your figures are wrong. If you started with 12.3 gallons and had 10 gallons left over, your production cost would be .23 : 1----it is not, it is 1.23 : 1 12.3 gallons cost to produce 10 gallons of product. Total use, 22.3 gallons.

-------" What you are suggesting is a loss in energy and material during the extracting, processing and transport of petroleum that would be breathtakingly inefficient indeed."---------

Yes, it is.

Retail price is entirely independent of BTU energy cost; it is the total cost of all the oil used in production. Oil delivered on current contracts is indeed more expensive than oil delivered on older contracts at lower prices. The only thing we know for sure is that the total average per gallon price retail will be something more than what the average costs for all the oil used is. As older contracts run out, and input oil rises in cost on average, the retail price will have to rise in order to maintain a profit. Raw material will be getting more expensive, so retail prices will have to rise. If they do not, oil company profits wil have to fall. I don't think this will happen. The only other option is that retail prices will rise over time.
Comment
39 of 47
August 26, 2008
No Fred. What the DOE means when it says that it takes 1.23 million BTUs of crude oil to produce 1 million BTUs of gasoline is as I explained: you start with 1.23 million BTUs and you end up with 1 million BTUs. In the case of ethanol (according to the DOE's figures), you need 0.73 million BTUs of fossil energy to produce 1 million BTUs of ethanol. (Total energy, if you coiunted the energy in the corn, would be above 1 million Btus.) If you needed 1 MBtus of fossil energy to produce 1 MBtus of ethanol, you would gain nothing. Remember, to get that fossil energy in the first place, you have already spent that extra 23% as well. So you could not count it as a savings. So, at best, for every 1 MBtus of ethanol you are actually saving 0.27 MBtus, not 2.3 MBtus, much less 2.3 gallons for every gallon of ethanol.

And what you say about the relationship between the price of crude oil and the price of products makes no sense at all.
Comment
40 of 47
August 26, 2008
Correction: When I say that what Fred says "about the relationship between the price of crude oil and the price of products makes no sense at all", I am referring to his statement that the "retail price [of petroleum products] is entirely independent of the BTU energy cost." Of course it isn't, since most of the energy (and all of the material) going into products comes from the crude. So of course there is a strong correlation. If one lost as much as energy as Fred suggests is lost in getting to a gallon of diesel, then diesel would cost far, far higher per gallon than the cost of crude per gallon -- lags in adjustments to world market prices notwithstanding. Just look at the historical price series of crude and products.
Comment
41 of 47
August 26, 2008
Fossil Fuels are the most heavily subsidized industries we have.

Oil is running out. Oil is expensive, and it is going to get more expensive.

The purchasing power of the dollar is going down. This is because of inflation caused by spending $2 Trillion on a war to secure oil rights. This was is being paid for by borrowing on Treasury notes. This means in effect, cranking up the printing presses and printing money overtime. More $$$$ and fewer goods means each dollar buys less and less. This has been going on for years. The government has been lying to you about inflation by changing the way that key indicators are calculated, and manipulating markets. The government is out of tricks. The prime rate is as low as it can go. The hidden inflation is hitting the market. Everything is costing more. The end result of the most incredibly stupid and incompetent leadership us coming to light---they cann't hide it any more.

The other factor that is contributing to inflation is that we are importing almost 70% of the crude oil we use now. That makes a trade deficit of $1 Trillion per year---just to burn it up.

Bush is an oil man.

Chenney is an oilman.

Almost everyone in this administration has a background in oil or some other fossil fuel industry. And the official and unofficial policy of this administration has always been to sell out to Big Oil/Coal at every turn.

Oil dependence is killing America. Bush and Chenney are Big Oil.

The cost of petroleum diesel at the pump is nothing---it isn't even the TIP of the iceberg. It is costing us FAR more than that. It is being taken out of your pocket by pickpockets and thieves in suits and ties. All the while assuring you that everything is ALL right, we'll just drill more.
Comment
42 of 47
August 27, 2008
"And the official and unofficial policy of this administration has always been to sell out to Big Oil/Coal at every turn."

Maybe so, but not at the expense of ethanol. This administration (along with their Midwest friends in the Senate) is the greatest bunch of cheerleaders for ethanol the country has ever seen.

In any case, anybody who believes that ethanol is a David that isgoing to slay the oil industry is only deluding themselves. Blending ethanol with gasoline only perpetuates the era of the infernal combustion engine. The head of ADM came from an oil company. Shell and BP have invested big time in biofuels.
Comment
43 of 47
August 27, 2008
Ethanol does not need to be blended with petroleum to be used effectively. Indy League race cars can hit 240-260 mph on the straights, and they run on 100% ethanol. If ethanol can power the fastest race cars in the world(and they have run on alcohol base fuels for over 30 years)---it can power our private vehicles just fine.

There is nothing wrong with internal combustion engines. They do everything that we need them to do and have done so for over 100 years.
As far as the environment and nature are concerned, driving a car on ethanol, or a truck with biodiesel is exactly the same as riding a horse or pulling a cart with oxen. Horses and oxen also have internal combustion engines. So do you.
Comment
44 of 47
August 29, 2008
True enough: ethanol doesn't NEED to be blended with petroleum. But in the United States it is, and it will continue to be for as long as the government continues to promote ethanol. Indy League racers have always used specialty fuels. That they are now using pure ethanol is neither here nor there, and says nothing about what will happen in the general motor-fuels market.

Brazil tried encouraging ethanol-only vehicles in the early 1980s -- a policy that succeeded until petroleum prices fell and sugar prices (and hence hydrous ethanol prices) zoomed. The market was rescued by the advent of flex-fuel vehicles, which now account for the bulk of sales. But Brazil produces ethanol from sugar cane, and has about 1/10th the number of gasoline-powered vehicles as the United States (and drives them less).

If you want to argue fine points: corn ethanol requires a lot of fossil fuels, still, in its production. A horse and buggy does not. A person riding a bicycle only exhales as much carbon as he or she takes in as food and drink. That is not true for corn ethanol.

In any case, nobody is advocating a return to the horse-and-buggy days. Rather, those of us who are skeptical of government mandates and subsidies for ethanol are trying to point out that investment in conservation and alternatives to motor transport yield more energy security and environmental benefits than grain-based ethanol.
Comment
45 of 47
September 4, 2008
------"If you want to argue fine points: corn ethanol requires a lot of fossil fuels, still, in its production."---------

Then use biofuels. Use compost and ash for fertilizer instead of petroleum base synthetics---they are less toxic and better for the long term health of the soil anyway. And compost and ash are the end result of biofuel production anyway. Biodiesel can be used straight as produced in most farm equipment with no modification---they are already diesel anyway.

------"A horse and buggy does not. A person riding a bicycle only exhales as much carbon as he or she takes in as food and drink. That is not true for corn ethanol."--------

That is also true for a truck, tractor or car running on biofuel. There has to be a corresponding amount of plant biomass to produce the fuel from, or you could not produce the fuel.

I've NEVER said anything about mandates or subsidies for biofuels. I want ordinary people to invest in stocks of companies that produce biofuels. GET RID of fossil fuel subsidies, tax breaks, special favors etc., let the two compete on a level playing field. Biofuels will win out, because oil is running out and becoming harder to get---biofuels will only become easier to get as production grows. Oil is a dinosaur, and it is dying out---if we are smart we'll be getting the replacement online right now and allow a smooth transition.

Why do people INSIST ignoring the HUGE well of subsidies, tax breaks, special favors and out right corruption being handed out RIGHT NOW to the fossil fuel industry. If you REALLY want lower taxes and to get the government meddling out of the market place---get rid of oil and coal.

Biofuels can do that with little or no disruption to the way we do things now. And they will be much cheaper to use in the long run.
Comment
46 of 47
September 4, 2008
Ronald---you keep harping ON and ON about corn ethanol---well, the truth is the ethanol from corn is just a by product of feed production. We can make ethanol from any type of plant material whatever. Cellulosic ethanol is now in commercial production in several places. And it has been since the 1890"s.

What are your objections to ethanol made for logging and millwork waste wood, and crop waste? Nobody will starve because we made ethanol out of dead tree limbs I think.
Comment
47 of 47
February 4, 2009
"Ronald---you keep harping ON and ON about corn ethanol."

That is because 99.9% of fuel-ethanol production in the United States is made from corn. Moreover, even the Renewable Fuels Standard foresees corn continuing to be the dominant ethanol feedstock in the United States until at least 2020.

****

"[W]ell, the truth is the ethanol from corn is just a byproduct of feed production."

As I have shown on another string, corn ethanol is NOT a byproduct of feed production: you have it backwards. Dried distillers grains with soluables (DDGS) sell at around the same price per tonne as corn. Nobody builds a huge factory, employ several dozen people, uses a lot of energy and water, just to take a raw material (corn kernels) and turn it into a smaller volume of concentrated product (DDGS) that sells for no more than the unit price of the origninal raw material. Ethanol is where the value added is created (thanks to subsidies and mandates); DDGS is just a byproduct.

****

"We can make ethanol from any type of plant material whatever. Cellulosic ethanol is now in commercial production in several places. And it has been since the 1890's."

That is total B.S. We "can" make ethanol from any plant material, but we are not yet, certainly not in commercial quantities. The first demonstration plants in the United States are only now coming on line, and all the government projections foresee cellulosic ethanol production accounting for a small percentage of total U.S. gasoline demand over the next decade. Cellulosic ethanol was NOT being produced in the 1890s -- certainly not in anything close to commercial quantities.
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