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July 30, 2008

Interstate Transmission Superhighways: Paving the Way to a Low-carbon Future

by Michael Goggin, AWEA

Imagine, for a moment, that today's Interstate superhighway system did not exist. Coast-to-coast delivery time for all sorts of goods we take for granted, from automobiles to asparagus, would take much longer and cost substantially more. Some goods might even be priced out of reach.

Across the country, hundreds of wind projects comprising tens of thousands of wind turbines are on hold because no one wants to step forward and pay for upgrades that will primarily benefit others. The obvious solution to this problem is a policy framework that will allow firms interested in building new transmission to collect the costs of the infrastructure investment from those who will benefit from it.

This situation, obviously undesirable, is similar to the problem plaguing the U.S. electricity transmission system, where the lack of a robust, integrated electric grid is rapidly emerging as the largest obstacle to the continued growth of the wind industry.

In its recently released report "20 Percent Wind Energy by 2030," the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) identified transmission limitations as a chief roadblock to realizing the enormous economic, environmental and energy security benefits of obtaining 20% of our electricity from the wind. Similarly, a poll conducted by NRG Systems Inc. at last month's Windpower 2008 Conference in Houston, Texas, found that participants saw transmission issues as the biggest problem facing continued development of wind energy in the U.S.

The lack of electricity transmission infrastructure is particularly burdensome for wind energy development because wind resources tend to be located at a significant distance from population centers. The bulk of America's best wind resources are located in the plains, stretching south from the Dakotas to Texas, while most of the country's population lives along the coasts. Putting our country's incredible wind energy potential to use requires finding a way to move this electricity from where it would be generated to where it is needed.

Since almost all low-carbon electricity generation technologies are heavily dependent on developing new transmission infrastructure, significant investments in transmission are essential for the transition to a lower carbon future.

A renewed investment in our outdated transmission system is a priority for other reasons as well. A stronger grid will be more reliable and more resilient in the face of potential disruptions caused by accidents or terrorist attacks. An investment in the grid will also reduce congestion — the grid's equivalent of traffic jams — that already costs consumers tens of billions of dollars per year in the form of higher electricity prices.

Of course, rethinking and ultimately reshaping the nation's electric grid is no small task. While the benefits of solving the country's transmission problems significantly outweigh the costs of the required investment, enacting the policies that will allow this investment to take place will require a hard-fought battle against entrenched political interests. To use an analogy that works both in terms of its scope as well as the political will that was necessary to get it done, solving our country's transmission problems will require the same type of forward thinking and bold leadership that made it possible to build the interstate highway system starting in the 1950s.

The Transmission Superhighway Vision

American Electric Power (AEP), a major investor-owned utility with regulated power companies serving customers in eleven states, and AWEA have partnered to create a vision of what a nationwide transmission superhighway would look like. One potential transmission build-out scenario that would allow the U.S. to obtain 20% of its electricity from the wind would include 19,000 miles of new 765-kilovolt (kV) transmission lines, for an estimated price tag of US $60 billion. (A 765-kV line is a high-voltage power line that can carry larger amounts of electricity — and with significantly higher efficiency — than most older transmission lines in use today.) These high-voltage lines would serve as the backbone of an interstate transmission superhighway. A map of this scenario is provided in Figure 1, illustrating how new 765-kV transmission lines would be integrated with the existing high-voltage grid to interconnect new wind energy development in regions with significant wind resources.



Figure 1: AEP-AWEA Transmission Superhighway Vision

While the size and cost of the transmission superhighway may sound large at first glance, it is important to keep these numbers in perspective. Given that electricity transmission infrastructure typically remains in service for 50 years or more, the cost of the investment for the average household would be equivalent to about US $0.35 per month, less than the cost of a postage stamp.

Those costs would be more than made up by the economic savings from replacing natural gas use with wind power generation, not to mention the benefits of reducing emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2) and other pollutants. In fact, the DOE report estimated that obtaining 20% of U.S. electricity from wind would reduce electricity sector natural gas use by 50%. In addition, the DOE study found that the 20% wind energy scenario would reduce CO2 by 7.6 billion tons between now and 2030. Electric sector CO2 emissions would be reduced by 825 million tons in the year 2030 alone, an amount equal to 25% of all electric sector carbon dioxide emissions in that year or the equivalent of taking 140 million cars off the road.

A number of studies have found that the costs of transmission investments for wind power are significantly outweighed by the consumer savings that those investments produce. As illustrated in Figure 2, a 2006 study by the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) found that over time an investment in new transmission infrastructure would produce benefits many times larger than the cost of the investment.

 


Figure 2: Results of Texas Study on the Costs and Benefits of Transmission for Wind (Source: ERCOT)

In April of this year, ERCOT followed up with a more detailed analysis of the costs and benefits of potential transmission expansion plans. The study found that the smallest transmission investment plan would bring enough new wind energy online to save US $1.2 billion per year in fuel costs — enough savings to cover the US $3.8 billion cost of the transmission infrastructure in a little over three years. The new wind brought online by the next largest transmission plan would save $1.7 billion per year in fuel costs, repaying the $4.9 billion cost of the investment in 2.9 years.

Similarly, the Midwest Independent System Operator (MISO) recently studied the costs of developing 16,000 megawatts (MW) of wind within its system (Midwest ISO, Midwest ISO Transmission Expansion Plan 2006), along with 5,000 miles of new 765-kV transmission lines to deliver the wind from the Dakotas to the New York City area. Although the overall generation and transmission costs reached an estimated investment of US $13 billion, the project produced annual net savings of US $600 million over its costs. These savings are in the form of lower wholesale power costs and prices in the eastern U.S. resulting from greater access to lower cost generation in the western states such as Iowa and the Dakotas.

Multiple Benefits
Higher-voltage lines that would be built as part of a forward-looking transmission plan have a number of economic and environmental benefits over the lower-voltage lines that are built through the piecemeal, incremental transmission expansion practices employed in the past and still prevalent today. According to an April 2008 report by M. Heyeck and E. Wilcox entitled, "Interstate Electric Transmission: Enabler for Clean Energy," a single 765-kV line can carry as much electricity as six 345-kV lines, using one-fourth as much land at one-third the cost and with one-tenth of the electricity losses. As a result, even though the 19,000 miles of new transmission lines envisioned in the AEP scenario would only amount to a 12% addition to the 160,000 miles of existing high-voltage transmission lines already in use in the U.S., they would be able to carry at least 20%-40% of U.S. peak electrical capacity.

In addition to the benefits of integrating a large amount of new wind generation, a renewed investment in the country's transmission infrastructure would also have significant economic and reliability benefits that would justify this investment even in the absence of wind. An ongoing study of new transmission options found that transmission congestion currently costs eastern U.S. consumers US $29 billion per year in the form of higher electricity costs. The preliminary results of the study indicate that an investment in the transmission needed to significantly reduce this congestion would produce a net benefit for consumers of US $5 billion over the cost of the transmission. (Presented in D. Osborn, "Planning of a Power Transmission System Using Economic Tools," JCSP Transmission Design Workshop, June 2008) Similarly, Idaho National Laboratory recently released a study concluding that five proposed transmission lines in the western U.S. would provide US $55-85 billion in annual benefits.

A Key to All Low-carbon Technologies

A growing chorus of experts has begun to express the concern that a lack of transmission infrastructure will present an obstacle for all low-carbon energy technologies, including renewable energy, nuclear power and coal power plants outfitted with carbon capture and sequestration technology. One of these voices is Kevin Kolevar, DOE's assistant secretary for electricity delivery and energy reliability, who explained in his written testimony at a Senate hearing on June 17:

Significant new transmission will be necessary in the 21st century, largely because much of the Nation's future electricity demands will be met by generation sources located in areas that currently lack adequate grid connectivity. This applies to almost every type of generation:

  • Most of the nation's best wind and solar resources are located in remote areas where existing transmission capacity is either minimal or non-existent;

  • Most new nuclear plants will not be sited in populous areas, and will likely require additional transmission capacity;

  • Clean coal with Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS) will presumably be sited near geologic formations suitable for CO2 storage, and may not be near major existing transmission facilities.

Richard Sergel, president and CEO of the North American Electric Reliability Corporation (NERC), expressed similar concerns at an AWEA press conference on March 19:

We're sitting on the precipice of climate change legislation...It is in that context that we believe that the grid will be threatened unless we build the transmission infrastructure that is necessary to support renewable resources like wind, that will enable us to locate new clean coal facilities or even the gas facilities to locate them in places in which the grid will be able to withstand that so that we can meet the load requirements as they grow and have a reliable system for the operators to deal with."

Later, he added, "It doesn't matter if it's going to be the clean coal plant or the nuclear plant or the wind project or the solar project. The common denominator is that they are going to require transmission to move [electricity] from where it is [generated] toward the load centers."

Given that the process of planning, permitting and building transmission lines can take five to ten years or more, a failure to enact the policies to enable a major investment in our transmission infrastructure will seriously limit our country's ability to address the climate change issue in a timely or cost-effective manner.

Forging A Path

Although a number of studies have made it clear that the multiple benefits of investing in new transmission drastically outweigh the costs, thus far policymakers have been slow to take action. Fortunately, however, awareness among policymakers is growing. The June 17 hearing at which Kolevar spoke, held by the U.S. Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee "to examine the challenges and regional solutions to developing transmission for renewable electricity resources," was its first hearing ever on the topic. AWEA Transmission Committee Chairman and Board President-Elect Don Furman of Iberdrola Renewables testified on behalf of AWEA at the hearing. The hearing was well attended, with four Republican and five Democratic Senators present and the hearing room full.

In his testimony, Furman asked Congress to ensure that:

  • there are sufficient incentives to encourage investments in the transmission facilities necessary to fully develop our renewable resources;

  • the costs of new transmission facilities are fairly allocated to take into account regional and national benefits, including the development of renewable electric generation;

  • utilities are able to recover the costs of reasonable transmission investments;

  • states cannot unfairly inhibit the development of transmission that will provide multi-state benefits;

  • U.S. power marketing agencies, the Department of Energy, and [the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission] are encouraged to promote regional transmission infrastructure and system operations in support of renewable energy development; and

  • legislation regulating greenhouse gas emissions recognizes the contributions transmission can make to reducing emissions in the electric generation sector.

To use terminology from the field of economics, our inability to build new transmission is fundamentally a public goods problem. In most regions, policies require wind plant developers that want to connect to the electric grid to pay for the full cost of an upgrade to the grid network, even though the majority of the benefits of this upgrade would accrue to millions of electricity consumers and other power plants that could piggyback on this investment. Across the country, hundreds of wind projects comprising tens of thousands of wind turbines are on hold because no one wants to step forward and pay for upgrades that will primarily benefit others. The obvious solution to this problem is a policy framework that will allow firms interested in building new transmission to collect the costs of the infrastructure investment from those who will benefit from it. Reforming the patchwork of policies that currently govern the allocation of transmission costs and the siting of new transmission lines will require cooperation among local, state, regional, and national entities.

It is fitting that our response to issues of such immense chronological and geographic scope as climate change and energy security should be forward-looking and based on the larger national interest. A large-scale investment in a transmission superhighway is a critical first step in this direction. To do so, we must move beyond the narrow, short-term view that is frequently applied when assessing the costs and benefits of new transmission investments. In a similar display of leadership 150 years ago, a former railroad lawyer named Abraham Lincoln saw the important national interest in opening the American West to growth. He signed legislation to create the transcontinental railroad network in 1862, and seven years later a railroad system spanning the country was completed. Effectively addressing issues as large as the energy and climate change problems currently facing our country will require bold, forward-looking action of the type that our country has rallied to before in the face of adversity.

Michael Goggin is an electricity industry analyst with AWEA.

This article first appeared in July 2008 Windletter, the monthly newsletter of the American Wind Energy Association, and was republished with permission.

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Reader Comments (37)
 
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July 30, 2008
I think we need ALL of the renewable technologies we can muster. The dangers of global warming and finite resource depletion are too great not to do this. Photovoltaics have a lot of promise and are coming down in price, as is the cost of silicon. Photovoltaics are low maintenance, do not need concentration, and typically use space such as roofs, which are occupied space anyway. But photovoltaics, and necessary storage capacity, are expensive.

I disagree with uncivil comments like calling people "idiots", but I must say Stop Killin's assertion that wind and solar are equal in most places is patently untrue. He/she needs to look at a solar or wind resource map sometime and see for himself/herself. I am a native of Kansas who now lives in Alabama. The wind resources in Alabama are nowhere near what they are in Kansas. Likewise while Alabama is often sunny, the sunshine is not nearly as constant or intense as it is in Arizona. There is, however a new solar-thermal electric plant being built in Florida that has a "hybrid" design that will rely on both solar and natural gas, which could someday be replaced by bio-methane. This might be a good option for parts of the Southeast. Bio-methane in combination with wind energy might be a good option in parts of the Northeast.

One more thing about wind energy: The relationship to energy output versus wind speed is cubic. That is, if you double the wind speed, you get eight times the energy, i.e. 2-cubed = 8. However, if you cut the wind speed in half, you only get one-eighth the energy, i.e. 1/2- cubed = 1/8. This factor further exacerbates the inequality of wind as it relates to geography.

In a nutshell, I enjoyed this excellent article and we as a country need to do this big time. I hope after the disastrous energy policies of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney, the next administration will do better. But the next Congress must do better too.
Comment 1 of 37
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I wonder if the 40 countries that are very effectively implementing FITs and drawing up to 20% of their power at the highest "peaker" times after only 4 years are aware how stupid they are? I wonder why Germany (2 GW this year alone) and Switzerland, which have lower solar capacity that anywhere in the US, are aggressively pursuing rooftop PV programs and paying fair rates? No doubt because they are "idiots," eh?

It's so strange how something that "can't work" keeps working, isn't it? It must really bug you that you don't need a desert to have sunlight, you don't need a prairie to have wind, and you don't need a massive grid to have reliable power supplies, since you know everything about both energy and the environment.

So you know that solar and wind (ahem) "farms" kill off an average of 10,000 acres of usually intact, untouched ecosystem apiece, eh? And all you get is a few HUNDRED MW of power for all that death. That CSP uses between 40 million and 200+ million gallons of desert groundwater per year per small plant? That our desert habitat will never, ever, recover from the scale of blasting, bulldozing, pile driving, scorching, poisoning, dehydrating and scarring required to blight it with power plants and power lines. You can call it "small" if you like, but in the past 18 months alone, 1.25 million acres of our federal nature has started undergoing reviews for permits in Southern CA, NV and AZ - just for solar and wind, not even counting the extensive mining, drilling, OHV, ranching and military uses). And no end in sight. At what point is it "big," when they take your house with eminent domain?

I wonder if all the wind farm operators in CA know how dumb they are because there is only wind in the Midwest? I wonder if the massive geothermal fields at Salton Se are aware they don't actually exist? I wonder why some people can use only a few hundred kW hours per year and live well, while others use tens of thousands?

I'm the idiot?
Comment 2 of 37
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July 30, 2008
Siphon, while I agree with your conclusion about transmission infrastructure, I'm not sure histrionic ranting at Stop Killin will advance the cause.

My response to Stop Killin is this: The basic premise that sun and wind are ubiquitous unfortunately isn't the case. The economies of grid-parity with coal for solar, wind and even geothermal are highly location dependent. Yes, the sun shines in New England but not as much, and when we are talking about shifting 20% of energy demand in the US to renewables, doubling the output of a fixed capital asset makes long distance transmission worth the additional cost and land use (small, by the way, in the big picture).

Wind is effective in the mid-section of the country (and isolated pockets such as Cape Cod), Solar should be cost effective by 2012 in the southwest, and geothermal for electrical production may be cost effective someday, but only in narrow areas such as northern Nevada and southern Idaho.

Feed-in-tarriffs may work for a while to advance renewables, but only to support the market long enough for R&D investments and economies of scale in industries like photovoltaic manufacture to allow grid parity with coal, then a subsity-free market for electrical generation will take over. That transition will not take place uniformly across the country, but in areas that are best suited for each of the renewable resources.
Comment 3 of 37
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THIS TAKES US IN EXACTLY THE WRONG DIRECTION.

A "centralized combustion/lengthy transmission" model may have made sense in a coal/oil/gas era, where the fuel was geographically specific, the refining/combustion process was massive, messy and enjoyed economies of scale, and when there was no information about the enormous harm that power plants and powerlines caused to the environment and it's inhabitants.

Now that wind and sun are ubiquitous, the tech is ready to COMPLETELY DECENTRALIZE the grid by establishing an enormous point of use renewable infrastructure that relieves 80% of current grid congestion, completely eliminates the need for new transmission (and the tens of thousands of families who will lose their homes and livelihoods from eminent domain) and very nearly all centralized generation, and which allows Americans to fully engage in the renewable energy economy through conservation and generation.

all that's needed is for the huge capital which would be wasted on this type of transmission project, plus the enormous, wasteful power plants which would be built, to be diverted into fair feed-in tariffs for local, point of use PV and microwind producers, especially those willing to oversize systems in prime solar and wind resource areas.

PLEASE DO NOT ALLOW BIG ENERGY MONOPOLISTS TO RECENTRALIZE THEIR POWER BASES AND HIJACK US ALL AGAIN!

we need a real solution that is sustainable, and that engages and empowers all americans, not another top-down pyramid scheme that kills our open spaces, forces us from our homes, and sets us up for the inevitable supply and pricing manipulations Big Energy is famous for. decentralization stabilizes the grid, which is enormously destabilized by centralized generation and lengthy transmission. the increased risk of fires, blackouts, terrorist attacks, toxic meltdowns/spills/etc. and the death of intact ecosystem is extremely high with a centralized model and is completely eliminated by point of use.
Comment 4 of 37
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July 30, 2008
There is a new world wide web emerging right before our eyes. It is a global energy network and, like the internet, it will change our culture, society and how we do business. More importantly, it will alter how we use, transform and exchange energy.

Enough solar energy falls on the surface of the earth every 40 minutes to meet 100 percent of the entire world's energy needs for a full year. There is no energy supply problem, there is an energy distribution problem -- and the emerging solution is a new world wide web of electricity.
Comment 5 of 37
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July 31, 2008
There seems to be a persistent belief among skeptics that the unequal distribution of sunlight in the USA means solar power can't be a real solution. This is a fallacy. That 2 GW of power that Germany produces comes from a level of sunlight lower than EVERY state in the USA except Alaska. Even Alaska has the potential to reap as much benefit from solar power as Germany, which is a LOT. Germany added more new generation capacity from solar alone than a new nuclear power plant could have provided. And that is Germany's "run rate" - the equivalent of a new nuclear power plant per year and getting even faster.

This in itself isn't an argument against the transmission lines. In fact, massive solar power arrays could probably piggy-back on such lines mainly intended for wind, thereby stabilizing the lines and reducing power fluctuations.

My concern with the idea of massive new transmission infrastructure is that it too often is used as an excuse for not building up distributed generation, which we need just as badly as we do big wind. And then of course there are Stop Killin's environmental objections, which are very real and should not be dismissed lightly. The original impetus for building centralized generation and transmission lines in the first place was to put the polution (smoke and smog from coal) where no one had to see or smell it. Before that, coal-based generators were all over the place, particularly in the big cities. Human nature hasn't changed since then. Give people the chance to make money by polluting far from prying eyes and they'll do it.

So modernize the infrastructure but don't expected done fast, cheap, and in an environmentally responsible manner. You can have ONE of those three attributes, no more. And while it's getting built, don't forget to build up distributed generation too.
Comment 6 of 37
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July 31, 2008
I have a few points in response to the comments by "Stop killin our wilderness:"

First, I strongly share your support for decentralized power generation, and you should know that AWEA strongly advocates for policies to increase the use of distributed wind turbines. You are correct that distributed renewable resources have many benefits and that they can play a role in addressing our climate change and energy problems.

However, opposing a renewed investment in the transmission grid will only help ensure the failure of vitally urgent efforts to significantly reduce our use of fossil fuels and avoid the worst impacts of climate change. Given the enormity of the energy and climate problems facing our society, insisting that the largest near-term solution to these problems be taken off the table hardly seems like a step in the right direction.

In your comment, you inadvertently stumble upon the main reason why transmission is an important complement for renewable generation. You suggest that those living in "prime solar and wind resource areas" should install "oversize" PV and wind generators and provide their excess power to other regions. Yet how do you expect this energy to be transmitted from region to region without transmission lines?

Unless you are going to forcibly relocate people from areas where renewable resources are inadequate to meet their energy needs, making use of our renewable energy resources in a way that is economically feasible will require a means of transmitting energy from where it is produced to where it is used.

As I explained in the article, a high-voltage transmission grid is the most environmentally benign way to move energy from one place to another. The amount of power a transmission line can carry increases with the square of the voltage, which is why a 765-kV line can carry as much power as six 345-kV lines, using one-fourth as much land and with one-tenth of the electricity losses.
Comment 7 of 37
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August 1, 2008
The problem with our "brave" anonymous friends here is that they are proposing solutions that do not address the problem: our dependence on fossil fuels to power the grid. As it currently stands, the only technologies that are going to shut down or reduce the use of coal plants are energy efficiency, solar thermal plants with storage or a combination power plant (many types of renewable energy plants on a transmission grid and coordinated...centrally) with a lot of storage associated with it. The latter two of these require new transmission to areas where there is renewable energy. If EEStor or another company can revolutionize and radically cheapen distributed storage, then we would have a different picture.

The advocacy of renewable energy has become for some the advocacy of a social ideal of a particular type of society that is decentralized and very different from our own. If they had the courage of their convictions they would
a) attach their names to their ideas
b) advocate openly for the type of society they want including what kind of social, economic or spiritual merits that decentralization has over the society that we have now that has both centralized and decentralized industries.
c) lead their arguments with this social advocacy and then add their suggestions for technical solutions to power that society

Otherwise they are trying of foist a minority ideal on a society which benefits both from localized and internationalized communication and exchange in many areas including energy. The task of developing a sustainable energy system is difficult enough as it is without the stealth advocacy of a utopian ideal or the hysterical exaggeration of the deficits of transmission and large-scale renewable energy developments in natural areas that have been carefully vetted by scientists and naturalists.
Comment 8 of 37
August 1, 2008
SolarGuy1000

I fully support large scale wind and solar thermal in the USA. These resources can be shaped into the common grid. Solar PV is too expensive to use in the USA. It should be used in third world applications where distributed systems are the only resources. Replace kerosene and diesel. One kilowatt hour in Bangaldesh accomplishes far more than the same power in the USA. example: Solar Schoolboat via micro-finance.

About 3 GW nameplate of solar PV was installed globally in 2007. China opened more coal-fired capacity than that, last week. Solar PV manufacturing is growing very rapidly and prices will come down, to a point, then the marketplace will establish the value of solar PV. That value is higher than the same KwHr delivered by coal, nuclear or hydropower.
Solar PV in the USA. Why bother?
It is far too disruptive for our economy. No fuel, no maintenance, 20 employees per Gigawatt instead of 700. Modular and scalable and distributed.

"If you pose renewal energy in any manner that associates it with less consumption and greater costs you are shooting a double barrelled shotgun right at the heart of efforts to have this country use more renewable energy."

Cross out the word "renewable" from your statement and you have my point exactly. We need to use less energy; conservation is the most easily renewable resource.

"double-barreled shotgun pointed at the heart" is an interesting metaphor, as if telling the truth about a technology is a bad thing. Unless, of course, you sell the products and depend upon subsidized deception for your success.

By the way, I am an electrical / instrumentation contractor who benefits directly from these subsidies when customers want to buy solar PV or small wind. I sell efficiency first.
Comment 9 of 37
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August 1, 2008
It's social, it's political, it's economic nature to fight back the tide of coming change.

We need, and we WILL get,...high power lines with favorable "science" built in,...while we all slowly migrate to more efficient sources of sustainables as new legislation is forced on us with rising fuel/power costs.

We're not going to see mainstream power stations ever become obsolete, due to the massive production infrastructure, massive numbers of multiphasic energy use in business, etc.

We need a superior grid, we need to assimilate renewables where possible and everywhere possible to allow us to NOT need to upscale the NEXT grid that is "forthcoming now" again in the future!

There must ulitmately be produced decentralized power that is generated by everyone for many reasons; but civilization on this planet is not advanced enough or "collectively entrenched" enough for such a phenomenon to yet exist. We bicker over our incomes, our plastic surgery needs, our second housed in the Hamptons, etc.

Wait two or three hundred more years,...only then will the individual produce his or her own power for all of their needs. Sustainables will be mature, cheap, easy to contract out and ubiquitous- l"ike Cheerios and milk".

One step at a time,...but let's make sure we do make,...one step at a time, in a timely, scheduled, predictable manner for mankinds sake.

All the Best,...
Comment 10 of 37
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August 1, 2008
Implementating widespread use of clean, renewable power sources is challenging enough without the added burden of the political blindness of some its most vocal advocates.

Americans consume. They love to consume and most things they consume, including electricity, and until recently, gasoline, are cheap.

If you pose renewal energy in any manner that associates it with less consumption and greater costs you are shooting a double barrelled shotgun right at the heart of efforts to have this country use more renewable energy.

There is a limited, economically justified role for distributed energy. But the heavy lifting of a renewable energy economy will be accomplished by large developments where wind and solar are most economically sensible.

We may be able to significantly change the sources of electricity our country uses, but not if renewable energy advocates piggy back a social/political agenda to change the way Americans live.
Comment 11 of 37
August 1, 2008
http://www.pnl.gov/news/release.asp?id=204

Pacific Northwest National Laboratory has produced a study which indicates that the unused off-peak capacity of the nations thermal power producers would provide enough charging capacity for the entire USA automobile fleet to be replaced with plug-in hybrids. This goal requires no new generation or transmission infrastructure; only a cultural change away from the muscle car/SUV mindset. And an outlet in your garage.

PNNL also has executed a pilot program with Smart Metering with a focus on how users interacted with their power consumption when they were able. Smart Metering would all interactive load-shedding which could further reduce on-peak loads, also reducing the need for new infrastructure.

We will spend hundreds of billions in the future to maintain and improve our energy infrastructure just to account for new growth and population.

Europe, especially Germany, are often cited as places that have the renewable energy strategy figured out. All we need to figure it out too is the $8.00 gasoline and $0.40/KwHr that Europe has lived with for many years. Oh yes, taxes are much higher than in the US. They phase out carbon-based resources on a pay as you go basis with high prices and high taxes. We go to war for carbon resources and pay for it with tax cuts and "going shopping". It is not the government or big business or utilities; The problem is us.
Comment 12 of 37
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August 1, 2008
I am glad Stop Killin spoke up. We need a man with heart in our midst.

On the article itself I found Wind mentioned over 30 times, no solar, no geothermal. As for the map. It does not take much consideration into where the people are. A huge percentage are over there on the east side north of Washington, D.C. where
no green lines have been drawn.

This problem has several facets. As a technical problem it is much like the first transcontinental railroads. Anybody that looks at a railroad map of 1860 can tell that transcontinental railroad is just over the horizon. It only took about 20 years to complete the first three. And just as the first railroads had different gauges, the present power systems have their own little characteristics
of phase differences etc. that will delay some connections for years.
And yes, if you look at our power grid maps today, you can see that parts of this system are just over the horizon.

Then there is the financial problem. The economy took a serious
hit after they were finished in around 1887. The third thing is the steel and copper and aluminum that will be needed to build these things. It is a huge amount.

And as Stop Killin aluded to, this is going to be one big job for the right-of-way men and a hardship on the people, plants and animals it displaces.

The last thing is the great benefit to places like California and Nevada
who are rich in these resources and the folks in the southeast who
will surely get to pay taxes that will be used to fund this thing while
receiving no direct benefit.

Do we need all of this thing? I do not know. But we will sure see parts of it.
Comment 13 of 37
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I'm very glad to see that Siphon's post was left up despite his attack against someone simply offering a very respected alternative that is gaining more and more acceptance daily. By leaving it up, it reminds us that those who cannot compete in the arena of ideas with nothing left inevitably resort to tasteless insults.

The conflict here is very obvious. Technology brought us digital cameras so we no longer rely on film and developers. When Kodak and Fuji began to realize this, they did not expand production in film and film cameras. Instead they adapted to the new paradigm and survived by accepting it and participating in it. Now, as Germany and other countries are showing us, advances in micro solar and wind generation will allow us to generate ourselves more of the energy we use daily. As I read it, stop killin is not calling for the end to energy retailers, but I agree that these providers are going in the wrong direction by advocating for expansion in both remote production and transmission. Wouldn't it make more sense to adapt to what now seems to be inevitable - that technology is making distributed generation more efficient and financially feasible?

If congestion truly is the motivator for expanding the grid, then it is clear that reducing demand will also alleviate congestion. And the cleanest, safest way to reduce demand is to generate renewable energy locally. Retail energy providers can and should be participating in this instead of looking backwards to the same archaic production and transmission methods that caused this dilemma in the first place.

Under current policy, the more we grow, the more remote generation and powerlines will be needed. When will we say enough is enough? It's time to end the cycle now. We can protect our remaining open spaces and keep the lights on. Just because some areas of the country have more solar or wind energy potential, this does not mean that others do not have enough.
Comment 14 of 37
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First of all, thanks to everyone, including the author, who supported my right to comment, as well as those who added important points. To Steve R, perhaps you just don't recognize a solution when one is set in front of you, since all the other posters clearly understood the solution I am proposing.

To be clear, I never said that wind and solar resources are "equal" everywhere, just that one and/or the other exist, to varying degrees nearly everywhere, and if resources were devoted to local solutions, the tech would develop to capture more elusive wind/sun resources. As long as we are talking about "grand" solutions, we need to consider the larger picture of, as Benjamin mentioned, using our resources to develop conservation tech, and as many of us mentioned, better point of use renewables, which relieve HUGE loads from the existing grid, alleviating the "congestion" argument for massive new transmission.

Secondly, PV produces mostly "peaker" power, and small, rooftop applications are largely intended to offset that demand, both onsite and at the nearby urban load centers. Take SoCal, for example. If every structure that had "capacity" for PV and microwind was built out, then most of those structures would zero out during peak congestion (removing a huge percentage of "incoming" demand), with many feeding excess into a LOCAL grid, and the skyscrapers, ISP servers and heavy industrials within 100 miles (LA, San Diego, OC) could use 100% of that excess in real time. If there was still excess, it could proceed along existing corridors to the next demand point.

I am not opposed to replacing existing lines with superconductors or other higher-quality, lower waste lines, and/or "smart grids" to accommodate more POU. I am very in favor of end consumers having real-time consumption/rate information so they can make good decisions. I simply do not believe that heavy re-centralization for RE and massive killoffs of wilderness are a good or "green" start.
Comment 15 of 37
August 1, 2008
Distributed generation requires matching distributed loads which can operate effectively with intermittent resources like wind and solar. The key is some type of storage which typically is too expensive for small distributed systems.
The Grid is a type of co-ordinated storage system, controlled by utilities. It works well but is wasteful.
The real answer for Americans is to reduce our waste personally and locally. Putting solar PV electricity into our current grid system is like pouring Perrier water into a leaky bucket; no value is added. Although, We probably do offset the parasitic loads on our computers and entertainment equipment with our current renewable infrastructure and resources.

Sacrifice?! We have already stated that we will have no part of that as a culture. Cost! Get used to it.
Comment 16 of 37
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August 1, 2008
Regarding the comments of "Stop Killin Our Wilderness", I agree with Siphon on the point that you are an idiot. People like yourself are another significant obstacle in the energy dilema this country faces. You are accomplished at complaining and knocking down ideas, and your vocabulary is wonderful, but you offer nothing in return. What are your ideas? What do you think we should do? Instead of being a turd in the spectrum of ideas, why don't you offer some ideas and become part of the solution?

Also, it would be nice if we could view the transmission line map without distortion, or be able to download it, and why don't we hear more about the MagLev wind turbines?
Comment 17 of 37
August 1, 2008
I also want to point out to the doubters that the solar resource is much better distributed nationally than one might suppose. Brian Ballek's point is well made: Germany's got less sunlight than Seattle and yet they've managed to build a solar empire. How did they do this? While the U.S. was obsessing with growth and consumption, Europe rethought things and cut power consumption per capita in half without damaging their standard of living.

Insolation data (from SEI's Photovoltaics: Design & Installation Manual):

For flat plate collector tilted at latitude (annual averages)---

Caribou, Maine (47 degrees N.): 4.2 sun hours
Tucson, Arizona (32 degrees N.): 6.5 sun hours

Caribou still gets two-thirds of the Tucson insolation. And 4.2 sun hours will yield about 2.5-3 MWh per year from a residential 2kW array. Still think you can't use distributed solar? (Okay, Seattle sucks at 3.7 sun hours! But still doable.)

We must rethink not just one or two parts of our energy story, but the whole shebang, and a great place to start is how and why we use energy in all forms. There greatest and most immediate source of energy available to us is conservation.
Comment 18 of 37
August 1, 2008
It's worth pointing out that all studies and assessments are based upon existing data and models, no less this AEP/AWEA study, as visionary as it is. I certainly don't have expertise in the national grid, but it stands to reason that the existing infrastructure, built more or less concomitantly with our transportation highway infrastructure in the postwar boom years, is aging and could benefit from replacement as well as newer technologies (higher kV). But it's based upon the model of bureaucratization of resources and services (which I suppose the war effort partly taught us), and the cultural paradigm of "bigger is better".

While that's all well and good as a chapter in our history, we're well into a new chapter, one where we are face-to-face with the unsustainability of our past systems & models (extraction, consumption, distribution). The most fundamental of these old tenets is not even addressed in this, nor many such well-intentioned studies or projects: that is, our ludicrous, unsustainable levels of consumption, both of power and the natural resources from which we derive it (presently, mostly coal and gas). So here we are talking about subbing in renewables for the ol' dirty fuels while unconsciously perpetuating the same flawed (doomed) model that got us into this mess in the first place: overconsumption. "Let's move all this GREEN power around four time zones--- and hurry, 'cause we got a whole new generation of widescreen HDTVs we need to power up, not to mention my plug-in Escalade." I'm being silly, but the point is that the need for massive redistribution of the amount of power we now consume would be at least partly obviated by addressing the root cause of the hullabaloo: excessive, inefficient consumption.

Of course, it's "political suicide"-- the assumption is that you can't take Americans' power away from them "unless you pry it from our cold, dead fingers." But the value of distributed generation is amplified by reduced consumption.
Comment 19 of 37
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August 1, 2008
To Michael of AWEA; Did AWEA consider and compare HVDC transmission to the 765 KV line cost and line losses? Part of this equation would necessarily have to account for synchronous vs asynchronous generation source cost as much RE cost is associated with power conditioning of DC generators to allow incorporation into the AC grid and if you stayed in a DC distribution system for transmission to distant consumer grids, much RE cost may be eliminated.
I'm not sure from the article what is meant by transmission "congestion" but it would seem to me that a major factor in consideration of a national grid would be the advantage of time displacement between coasts and the ability to use under-utilized base power generation on one coast to serve the expensive peak load on the other due to the offset of the peak loads by up to 4 hours. There's a big problem though and it's that the East and West Coast grids are not in sync and need intermediate load matching plants that convert AC to DC and back to AC, raising the question of the utility of the 765 KV lines in the first instance where the HVDC could provide a lower power loss over the longer runs anyway.
A large part of the argument for RE is the present lack of consideration of externalized costs of conventional power generation that holds an economic advantage of RE because nobody is charging the power companies for stuff from mountain top raising, to mercury poisoning, to particulate health effects, to global warming effects, etc, so don't dismiss Stop Killin and Brandon so quickly. However they do have to present a better argument on these externalized transmission costs to offset the clear economics of reduced cost per kwh of locating RE generators in areas of higher energy density. Our economy is premised upon developing and licensing the lower cost power source first and unless you can document the externalized cost and have legislation to require consideration of that unaccounted cost in development/licensing you'
Comment 20 of 37
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August 2, 2008
Michael, a very good explanation on America's urgent need to upgrade it's transmission grid.

Is it any wonder why life-long Republican T. Boone Pickens, career Democrat Al Gore, and the AWEA, are all calling for the same thing?

Please add my name to the list.

Regarding European success in integrating higher levels of renewables, they can do so precisely because of the robustness of their grid.

The Achilles heel about renewable power sources like wind and solar is its intermittency.

Once wind penetration levels reach some 20%, volatility becomes a real problem. Below that, you can use several factors such as reserve, frequency control -- and most importantly grid infrastructure -- to support wind's volatility.

Denmark has successfully integrated the largest amounts of wind energy. But 40% of Danish wind power is exported to Germany which acts as a big battery. Without the German grid's storage capacity, Danish wind levels would be significantly less.

The grid must be seen its totality. In the EU, it's tied tightly together; hardly the case in "patchwork" network in the USA.

But this has more benefits to renewable energy more than just transmitting the "juice" coast to coast -- vitally important as that is.

Economically, another consequence of renewable power variability is a reduction in the capacity payment of fluctuating power generation. A robust grid, is the first step in reducing these fluctuations and helps "firm" supply to the utility. This in turn increases the price of wind power generated because utilities no longer need to have the additional cost of traditional generation sources providing a reliable backup.

In a "friendly" debate I've had with the AWEA, also important is the role of energy storage. To be fair, that's more of a "page two" issue. You can read that here: http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/story?id=52716
Comment 21 of 37
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August 2, 2008
I don't know why nobody ever talks about off-shore wind. You can tow the components for a dozen even larger turbines from ports that already have the material handling capability to out-of-site locations that are mere dozens of miles from 80% of the energy consumers, where the wind blows more consistently and the uniform velocity gradient extends to within feet of the surface and they are relatively easy to move or replace if required. Just plant them like tulips, string them together with submerged cable and off you go.

No need for thousands of miles of new transmission rights of way and the losses incurred in moving power great distances, waves of power flow rippling back and forth across the country to attempt to satisfy base load requirements and endless local approvals and NIMBY battles for wind projects, etc.

Has anybody ever thought about the incredible inefficiency of terrestrial wind projects or the total carbon footprint they leave? Hauling millions of tons of concrete and steel by way of trucks using access roads carved to remote mountainous locations? Ever thought about how much CO2 is released by the kilns needed to make portland cement?

I suppose down-side is people will complain that only big players can do so off-shore whereas all that remote land would remain worthless to mom and pop or speculators without wind, and the pony-tail crowd hates big business. The problem is that eventually the big boys WILL go off-shore because that is what makes the most sense, and all these terrestrial projects, already of marginal economic viability with subsidy and even less so as the fleet gets older and more expensive to maintain, will become white elephants carrying an almost incalculable future liability for the cost of decommissioning and removal, both financial and ecological, and former vistas and landscapes lined with turbines from horizon to horizon spinning like gas-station pinwheels will now be abandoned to the receivers, motionless and rusting.
Comment 22 of 37
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August 2, 2008
Pity about Earth.
Comment 23 of 37
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August 2, 2008
Comparing the US to Germany and Switzerland is problematic. While it is interesting to compare us to see "what can be done," our societies have largely taken different approaches to solving problems. Sure, we could forcibly impose $.40/kWhr and $8/ga for our energy. People would, of course, adapt. In the US, freer people and freer markets decide how to allocate capital and goods. In the case of energy, ultimately it is the investors who will decide what the best return is. The role that we should be expecting from government is leveling the playing field, by eliminating all subsidies and demanding cost accounting for energy on a full life cycle basis. Accounting for emissions is probably the hardest factor. Probably a cap and trade on current emissions (you have to start somewhere) is the best way for the market to express value. With these mechanisms in place the investment will go to where the best payoff is, and rightly so. Governments are not capable of determining the best solution (for example, corn based ethanol!). The only government policy that we should have on a national basis is related to dependence upon non North American energy. I would impose a sliding scale tax on imported energy to encourage development of domestic resources. (I suppose you could argue that is how EU ended up with $8-$12 gasoline.)

As a practical example, though, no investor right now would worry about how to supply Washington DC with power from the Midwest WHEN Chicago, Dallas, Kansas City, Minneapolis and Denver can be served first. Certainly before some sort of national grid is established the Midwestern states should probably be receiving 50% of their power from wind with much more modest investment in local grid infrastructure.
Comment 24 of 37
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August 2, 2008
The debate between distributed and centralized transmitted RE production should be definitively resolved in each instance by a cost benefit analysis of the alternatives. Distributed RE will not occur without massive subsidies and/or building codes mandating building incorporated generation. Advocates of these policies will have to convince the public and legislators that the costs of the alternative remote generation options are not reflective of their true economic impact on society and intervention in the form of subsidies/mandates is therefore necessary to correct for unaccounted externalities.
Distributed generation advocates can whine about the benefits of their preferred option, but let's face it, the status quo will prevail unless they buckle down and produce the sound scientific analyses that document the adverse impacts of centralized power generation and then demonstrate that a specific level of subsidy/mandates are the preferred economically feasible alternative.
There are no doubt some adverse impacts from all forms of RE and even conservation could have adverse health impacts by raising levels of off-gases from our building materials in our homes. This debate merely shows that a more comprehensive evaluation of the externalized costs of all energy solutions is necessary to arrive at a sound comprehensive energy policy and that is only the beginning of the struggle. We'll then have to surmount all of the political hurdles to implement sound policy that will be met with hostility from entrenced economic interests and staunch cultural inertia. This is going to take more than a little dedication and pocket change. Sniping at alternative views is not productive at this stage and thoughtful concerns should be developed into meaningful arguments that will enrich the debate that most of us want to develop into sound policy.
Comment 25 of 37
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August 3, 2008
Doom,

I share your enthusiasm for nuclear. As uranium production is only 60% the fuel for the world's existing reactors, uranium mining is a great investment.

In research on the energy equation - likely the biggest investment opportunity ever - I've found pluses and minuses for each energy source.

The future of alternative energy will be many alternatives. There is no silver bullet.

Nuclear is no exception. Not only have nuclear plant costs soared and lead times lengthen, but the dearth of investment has created serious shortages of skilled personnel.

Here's just one reason costs are soaring: there's only one plant capable of producing the central part of a nuclear reactor's containment vessel in a single piece. (http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aaVMzCTMz3ms&refer=home)

Don't get me wrong: I support an increased role for nuclear, but foresee a significant buildup further down the road. As we're exporting $2 billion a day to pay for foreign oil, wind and CSP solar can help now.

What will the "fuel" costs be in 2018? Oil at $50, $150 or $300? I see the latter figure. Even uranium has gone from $7 to $65 a pound in this decade.

And what will the cost of wind or the sun be ten years from now? Indeed it's a renewable power - hydro - that is the cheapest form today, generating 19% of world's electricity.

I also agree emissions technology is advancing. All technology is. Wind is up to 7+ MW per "pinwheel" - enough juice for 1800 homes. New storage tech is now taming wind's inherent intermittency.

Moreover, wind is bringing America tangible benefits: jobs in rural communities, an increased tax base, and a diversified income for farmers. A new skill set.

None of which we get if we continue to ship $700 billion a year overseas.

Coal and nuclear plants also need cooling - wind doesn't - reducing water consumption by 17%.

Profitability? In a SEI study, a wind farm + storage generated a 17.5% IRR.
Comment 26 of 37
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August 3, 2008
Curious, your point is amusing and well taken, however:

OK, so how 'green' is this Legacy?
So green that on some days its exhaust is cleaner than the air
Bob McHugh, The Province
Published: Wednesday, June 18, 2008

It's not easy being green, and selling "green" must be even more difficult. There's no cool-looking part to show your friends or new doohickey to plug that thing into -- just cleaner air!

Case in point, the 2009 Subaru Legacy PZEV. This car runs so clean that on a smoggy day, its exhaust can be cleaner than the outside air. Yet it looks and performs just like the current base Legacy that it replaces.

The PZEV designation is awarded to a vehicle that meets strict emissions standards set by the California Air Resources Board....

Full text of article here:
http://www.canada.com/theprovince/cars/story.html?id=624a8a3e-4d6b-4aec-b74f-bf0a318427b8&p=1

Curious, the point I was making is that emissions technology is constantly advancing and in light of the fact that half our electric power is generated by coal and that the shareholders and investors in the coal and coal power industries are not simply going to allow their boards of directors to devalue their investments without a fight, you can be sure they are busy investing millions to develop ways to scrub power plant emissions, convert them to some type of carbon precipitate and send it back to the mines in the same empty hoppers that brought the coal.

You should never discount the problem solving capability of the free market, and coal and nuclear have 70% of that power generation market with untold billions in capitalization. We have 104 nuclear plants emitting zero greenhouse gasses and supplying base load power that would require almost a half million utility-scale wind turbines to match, yet despite our fifty years experience people are building nuclear plants everywhere but here in the USA. I'll take another hundred nuclear plants over hundreds of thousands of pinwheels any day.
Comment 27 of 37
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August 3, 2008
I have an experiment I would suggest that Doom Pickens try: Spend one hour breathing normally in an area of California that has about average air polution. Record how you feel. Now, attach a tube to the car exhaust of a typical 4-5 year old car. Only inhale the exhaust coming out of the tube for an hour. Record how you feel. Let us know the results.
Comment 28 of 37
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August 3, 2008
Kevin, I'm sure you've heard the old saw about if the only tool you have is a hammer every problem tends to look like a nail, and in my experience many people who are dedicated to wind as the ultimate solution they tend to dismiss minor issues like efficiency and return on investment. For example, when you say "the wind is always blowing somewhere", how efficient is it to have idle wind farms, and how many would you need in order to shift a significant amount of base load, say over 5%, to wind? Some estimates are that it takes three or four units of wind capacity to replace one unit of fossil capacity, meaning to replace the base load capacity of one four-gigawatt fossil power plant you would need six to eight thousand 2Mw wind turbines distributed in such a way that a thousand of them were always running at full capacity or all of them were yielding at least 25% to 35% capacity.

There is no question in my mind that spreading six thousand turbines, access roads and other infrastructure across the landscape has a larger environmental impact and is a far less efficient allocation of capital than having the same base load capacity contained within a single square mile and requiring a fraction of the concrete, steel and transportation to build, so it really comes down to the issue of carbon emissions, what investment we are willing to make to reduce them and the many ways it can be achieved, wind being just one element.

It has been said that a car in California actually emits cleaner air out the tailpipe than is sucked into the air cleaner, and I suspect power plant scrubbers over the next few decades will be able to take all the carbon from the emissions and reduce it to some form that can be locked up underground again, doubtless at far less expense than shutting those plants down and replacing them with four times the capacity in wind generation.

Meanwhile, Al Gore will continue using thirty times the power the rest of us consume and flying about in his jet.
Comment 29 of 37
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August 3, 2008
Michael,

Does the AWEA have an ideas or opinions about the kind of transmissions lines of tomorrow's superhighways?

In my research, I found that high voltage direct current (HVDC) transmission lines are seen as the most efficient way to move electricity over long distances without incurring the losses experienced in alternating current (AC) power lines. HVDC cables can carry more power for the same thickness of cable compared with AC lines but are only suited to long distance transmission as they require expensive devices to convert the electricity, usually generated as AC, into DC.

Modern HVDC cables can keep energy losses down to around 3% per 1,000km and can also be used to synchronise AC produced by renewable energy sources.

The question of whether the world would be powered by direct current (DC), in which electrons flow in one direction around a circuit, or by alternating current (AC), in which they jiggle back and forth, was decided in the 1880s. Thomas Edison backed DC. George Westinghouse's money and Nicola Tesla's science backed AC.

Westinghouse won.

The reason was that over the short distances spanned by early power grids, AC transmission suffers lower losses than DC. It thus became the industry standard.

Today, however, some question that standard because over long distances high-voltage DC lines suffer lower losses than AC. Not only does that make them better in their own right, but employing them would allow electricity grids to be restructured in ways that would make wind power more attractive. That would reduce the need for new conventional (and polluting) power stations.

The question of where the wind is blowing would no longer matter because it is almost always blowing somewhere. If it were windy in Texas but not in N. Dakota, current would flow in one direction. On a blustery day in the Kansas it would flow in the other.

If America is going to update it's grid, is HVDC feasible?
Comment 30 of 37
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August 4, 2008
Tom Nimby (I like that handle) you have obviously never taken the Kobayashi Maru test but are about to over the next few years. Just remember... the good of the many outweighs the good of the few... or you. For every farmer or land owner sitting on worthless land that will gain value with a wind project there will be many more who lose valuation due to spoiled vistas and power lines, so it will be both boom and bust for "the little guy" in my opinion.

Off-shore is by far the better choice for many reasons and if wind ever gets to the point where it is contributing significantly it will be in the form of off-shore generation. You want to make hydrogen from electrolysis for off-peak storage? What better place than out in the ocean? You find that weather patterns change (after all, Al Gore has been predicting doom within a decade for the last three) why not just pluck them up and float them to another location... and that's not assuming they are already floating and simply teathered to the sea floor.
Comment 31 of 37
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August 4, 2008
Great discussion. I came to this site while searching for ways to do without big power companies. The reason I would like that is because the home where I am raising my family is within the area of a proposed power line project. All the big ideas and the scientific, technical and financial reasoning lack the real gut wrenching effect eminent domain will have a persons viewpoint. I agree something has to be done and we need leaders in industry and government that will solve problems like this. Just don't ignore the fact that there are real people out there that will be effected by projects like this.
Mr Furman asked the Senate Committee that the " states cannot unfairly inhibit the development of transmission that will provide multi-state benefits" From my point of view it is only the local and state governments that will be unfairly treated if federal agencies make these determinations. It's too easy for federal level politicians to appear to support a local issue and to be influenced from national or international industry contributions.
Take a minute and consider the possibility that someone proposes building a power line that would require your home to be bought under eminent domain. Now think of what plans you have for the next couple of years while this project gets debated. I'm not a wealthy person and my home is my largest investment, needless to say I'm very concerned about the lack of control I have. I'll continue to maintain my property in hope of maintaining it's value and I have to hope the other homeowners will do the same.
I agree something needs to be done in terms of power distribution, and I don't have a solution, just a request that when you argue on a grand scale about big issues like this don't forget to consider the negative effects on the little guy. It could be you some day.
Comment 32 of 37
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August 5, 2008
Electricity is tried and true, com'n at you at the speed of light unless commenter # 2 has his way. He wants us to go backwards in time thinking that "everyone can generate his/hers own juice". GET REAL dude, we don't even have the space to grow our own food let alone electricity for our house and (hopefully) soon to be our cars, trucks, ect!
Besides, how are we to solarfy (about a tenth of) the deserts without transmission ability?
PS, Stop killing our wilderness, There will be no wilderness if we do not use, what, a millionth thereof, to save it. Think about that!
Comment 33 of 37
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August 5, 2008
I just read Tom's deal and regret my harsh remarks 'bout not going for new lines. If I lived in such a path, I would hate it, but still, I would (try to) promote renewable energy and clean electricity.
I wonder what poster #2 thinks about all that forest clearing in the name of coal?
And yes, ocean wind should be pursued as the only viable very largescale solution along with desert mirrors.
Nuclear, I always thought "Nobody would go for it"... but if so, thousands of sq mi of deserts would not need to be covered. But we will need to create a giant "reflection" anyways to account for negative albedo due to Earth's natural (or man made) accent into hellish temps.
Comment 34 of 37
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August 5, 2008
Oh yea, I forgot, this darn desktop says "9 amps" on the power tranformer "input". 9 x 120 volts = way too much even for a guy who doesn't really like to conserve!
Comment 35 of 37
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August 6, 2008
"I'll take another hundred nuclear plants over hundreds of thousands of pinwheels any day."

Those 'pinwheels' are being built every day. Where are your new nuclear powerplants? None of them are going to be operating this year. Not even the next. And costs have tripled even without one plant being finished!

It is clear the nuclear industry cannot keep up with just a little bit of demand. Just a few reactors demand, and costs soar. Imagine if 100 nukes have to be built, costs will at least quadruple. Simple supply and demand economics 101. Nuclear equipment is too specialized, too exotic to scale to meet the levels of demand that will be required. Wind just borrows from other industries: steel and cement industries, construction engineers, mechanical engineers, airplane aero engineers, very large amounts of those engineers and materials available.

For the record, I think nuclear can help. A lot. But it's not going to grow quickly enough to be that silver bulled that so many people hold it for. The industrial/business case is just too shabby.
Comment 36 of 37
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August 17, 2008
Sorry, we're going to need a newer, better grid. There are too many of us to live like Pa Ingalls. If you think you can hide in the woods self-sufficient while the world crumbles about you, you are not a good student of history or anthropology. The hunters will track you down and find you. Imagine the Crips and the Klan and the unionized OTR truckers without power, fuel, and therefore, no well pumps, no food distribution. Packs of two-legged wolves, my friend, hungry and angry and looking for you.

The good news is market forces are doing some of the good work for us, by driving up costs. People are looking for ways to save electricity and fuel because they want to save money. Some are opting to use the windcharger [1920 technology].

My specialty is transportation, though, and for the electricity experts posting here, I have some QUESTIONS:

In a SciFi magazine in the late 70's, I read a story whose premise was a PV film coating roads across the nation, powering all motor vehicles [think slot cars], and providing a massive energy generation/distribution grid.

Is this even remotely possible with existing technology?

Secondly, in a similar SciFi scenario of my own, EMF from transmission lines was used to power small "personal" maglev rail cars, that could link with trains of similar vehicles or travel independently. In urban areas, with lots of commuters and high power transmission needs, the EMF swould power the transit system. Conversely, if you are going to go from Dickinson, ND. to Miles City, MT. the smaller transmission capacity would only power a smaller amount of traffic.

Possible? Plausible? Or just SciFi?

mog@mogblog.org
Comment 37 of 37
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