Sun Farmers of Canada

Mr. Berry...

Jerry said it all too nicely... The existing energy infrastructure is highly subsidized and the hidden intangible cost of fossile fuels and nukes are huge... Get a life or a brain, dude.  Troll elsewhere.

I for one am very glad Canada is beginning to do something.  They have been woefully neglegent in contributing to a better future. 

Mr. Berry,

You don't seem to have any concern over the government welfare given to fossil fuel corporations.  Before you spout off any more ridiculous complaints about the tiny fraction of government funds going to renewables, please educate yourself about all the subsidies that go into exploration, extraction, refining, transportation, and R&D for fossil fuels - not to mention the environmental messes left by fossil fuels.  Renewable subsidies are dwarfed by the corporate welfare given to fossil fuel corporations that own most of your elected officials.

And where did you get the bizarre notion that anyone is really going to "win in global warming".  Sounds like you need a class in basic logic.

Why do Canadians care about Global Warming or conservation???

If you believe in global warming, isn't Canada the Big Winnner? The country is largely uninhabited  due to the extreme cold weather. An increase in of 5 degrees would make large parts of the country livable. (normally considered a good thing)

In regards to conservation, Canada is a huge exporter of energy in the form of gas and oil. If it wants to save, it need only cut down its exports a fraction to do it.

Instead they install a money loosing solar system?

Canadians just don't get it. They win in global warming and they have more energy resourse than they need. 

    "Does the price per kw sold make for a profit with price of land and installation?"

HA HA HA HA ---- that was sooo funny. As of this date, every single solar pv project requires a gov't welfare check to make money Generically, electricity costs $.09 per kwh while solar at best comes in at $.24 per kwh (Solar Buzz) which EXCLUDES capital costs (interest on loans) and land value.  Private sector businesses actually include these details, but the solar pv supports like to gloss by them. (also gov't programs/welfare checks can pay for that too in some cases) 

What a scam!

A great way to generate (expensive) power  when you least need it in midsummer, whilst getting very little indeed in winter whan you need it.

 The rated power of a panel is not reached anyway, even in the summer, as it does not produce any power at night and reduced amounts early in the morning and late in the evening.

So you would be very lucky indeed to get as much as  25% of the rated power in mid-summer.

if you divide that by 4 you are givning a generous estimate of winter output.

So you are running at 6% if you are very, very lucky.

This is when you need it most.

Let the scammers pay for it out of their own pockets.

Solar PV might make some sense in the South West of the US, although it is still very expensive.

In Canada it is lunacy, and the tax-payer will foot the bill.

If you don't believe me, cost it out yourself. 

So far the Pine Beetles are running away with the cup up here in BC.  Water levels in the Great Lakes, the worlds largest freshwater source, are consistently on the drop.

Thats that.  The short to medium term "payback" (a useless and detrimental term for those of us working hard at mainstreaming renewables) on these solar farms may not be the stuff of capitalist dreams, but at about the 7 year mark it gets better.  In the meantime, their adoption in this form does 2 things: Make PV solar highly visibile  in the public eye, driving adoption, and economies of scale/human resource expertise development helping to bring costs down.

And for those living in Sault St Marie, for example, the infrastructure for backup power close at hand in the case of another monster blackout. 

Permit the observation from the Scripture that "He who argues with a fool ... will have no rest," and in another famous proverb, "Answer not a fool according to his own folly."

There is nothing to be gained from arguing with a rock.

HOLD IT. Canada and Russia are not winners in global warming?

You got to be kidding. 

The idea that no one can benefit from global warming is not a well thought out position. 

There is no logical reason why some places in the world would not benefit from a change in the climate while others will suffer. Canada and Russia would both benefit enormously from an increase in average daily temperatures. I am assuming that increased job opportunities, increased amounts of farm land, easier asscess to natural resources and a vastly expanded economy are beneficial. 

I know some of the hard-core, kool-aid drinking Greenies would dies agree. The Green religion claims that some of those things are bad. Heck, some of those in the Green religion believe using more than one square of Toilet Paper is bad. (its a renewable resoure for god sakes). I can't stand religous zealots.

Thanks Deep,

Profit isn't everything.  Its important, but it isn't everything.  Profit is Everything is what has driven us to the current brink of uttermost Lunacy, as D Martin coins it.  And calling the the estimate of 6% power output very very lucky doesn't give the highly educated and experienced people building these systems, costing out these projects for months etc much credit does it?  Its always easier to criticize others instead of taking courageous action oneself.  These projects may not fly, but at least they'll try....... All the best

(cont)

There are still plenty of houses in Canada where they have single glazing, in that climate!

Can your ‘intelligent and educated ‘ people work out the comparative savings on energy use and CO2 from subsidising their upgrading,  compared to the vast subsidies required for this more ‘sexy’ measure?

Tax payers money should be spent where it will do most good.

I challenge you to come out with comparative cost figures for PV installation per watt of power provided as opposed to  simply improving insulation., and the watts saved thereby.

Mr Seibold, I notice in your reply you do not actually challenge my figures for the amount of sun in winter in Canada.

It makes zero  sense to attempt to use photovoltaics when the problem is that there is not much sun in Canada in winter.

This rather obvious fact seems to have escaped the attention of the 'highly educated and intelligent' people responsible.

They appear to be using that education and intelligence to waste other people's money.

If they were building it in Southern California, or building geothermal heat pumps in Canada, I would say good luck and great. 

You should make use of the resources which are actually available in a particular area, not attempt to use wholly inappropriate technology.

This is stupidity, not intelligence. 

Pete McKenzie wrote of Canadian housing:

"Log house and timber construction already gives good insulation values from the off. "

Sorry, but as a Canadian, I am still shocked by the general ignorance of apparently a large number of people who seem to think we all live in igloos, or log houses.  With the exception of a few northern cottages, the vast majority of Canadians live in houses exactly the same as Americans--brick or vinyl siding exterior, wood frame, concrete block foundation, insulated, drywall/sheetrock interior, shingle roof, etc. 

hello, while i am for renewable energies, i find it difficult to justify spending $30,000 or more on a solar system. if i were to make up a system, i would use a 200 amps ,24 volts alternator with a small diesel engine to recharge a large battery bank and from there to an inverter. first i would need to bring electrical consumption down to 3 kwh a day or so. 2 liters of furnace oil a day would do the job and use the heat from the liquid cooled engine to heat the house that's about 60 to 65 % effieciency. while i am at it, i would grow corn and extract the oil and use that as a fuel.a system like that can be made for about $5000. that is a long way from $30,000.

Jim Berry's a zero-sum wind power fan: Any $ that's not wind $ (unless it's oil -- he never criticizes oil subsidies) actively hurts wind power.  Go read his comments on other articles. 

Use of PV in Northern latitudes can be very worthwhile. Panels can be orientated more vertically so the solar angle is not an issue. Certainly winter light will be much less than summer due to daylight hours, but many locations will have a high proportion of clear days in winter. The low temperatures also improve the PV performance. In summer the long days will have a considerable advantage over lower latitudes.

There is no chance of generating TOO MUCH power in any season. The fact that another source is required to help out in winter is not an issue. Existing power sources are quite used to doing this for normal fluctuations in demand. The CO2 saving is predictable over a number of years and it all helps. It will pay for itself overall, so go for it!

Then again, the major towns are not all wood but as I say, I think you are right on the insulation point, which is not to say that pure economics should dictate the drive towards a more sustainable energy future. Why is solar not appropriate? Is there no sun in winter where you live...? Panels are getting more efficient and costs coming down.

There is some interesting Canadian sunshine map info here

https://glfc.cfsnet.nfis.org/mapserver/pv/pvmapper.phtml?LAYERS=2700,2701,2057,4240&SETS=1707,1708,1709,1710,1122&ViewRegion=-2508487%2C5404897%2C3080843%2C10464288&title_e=PV+potential+and+insolation&title_f=Potentiel+photovolta%EFque+et+ensoleillement&NEK=e

Maybe you can find the figures you want.

I can't argue with you on the figures, David, but I do endorse your idea that improving insulation should be the initial way forward for all countries where heating is a major power consumer. However, globally there are many areas where it is hot water and basic raw energy that is required and space heating is not such an issue.

I also wonder if the Canadians, given the hostile climate during large parts of the year, may be well ahead on the insulation front already and the gains, from that course, small. That seems to be the experience of Canadians I have talked to. Log house and timber construction already gives good insulation values from the off.

Boy o' Boy ... talk about Ugly Americans.  Your lack of knowledge is scary!

Southwestern Ontario solar radiation is better than the best location in Germany so tracking commercial facilities are more profitable than theirs.

The sun only stays below the horizon in the artic. 

Largest peak demand is in the summer (air conditioning).

The Ontario building code for windows, insulation, etc. exceeds anything in the USA for new construction.

For the subsidized pricing dunderheads,  this is temporary to develop economies of scale that will bring the price down to competitive levels with conventional sources of electricity ... this is a normal economic cycle that the USA has taught the world.

 These changes will happen so the USA has to decide if it wants to let another industry go to the Germans, Japanese and Chinese... you need domestic production for protection, employment and your economy.

Charlie Monk:

If you think solar pv in northern latitudes is very worthwhile, you pay for it - the only reason it goes in at all is due to vast taxpayer fundedd subsidies.

I'm curious to know how altering the angle of your solar panels compensates for the sun being below or close to the horizon for much more of the day during the winter.

When demand is highest during the winter solar PV contributes least, so you still have to have fossil fuel plants to turn out that power. and if you had a lot of PV turn them off again in the summer when PV kicks in.

That would raise costs even above it's already astronomic level.