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by Stephen Lacey, Podcast Editor
The war of words has intensified in recent days over Citizenre, the new multi-level marketing business that promises to "revolutionize" the way Americans purchase their energy.
"This is a long-term proposition for both the customer and the associate and if they are willing to participate without any financial burden...then we are more than happy to deliver to them."
-- David Gregg, Citizenre, CEO
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282 Reader Comments
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pv-sales-in-ca-52346
February 15, 2007
De-centralizing the energy industry is the key here. When I first stumbled upon CitizenRE, I immediately felt as if it was a "smoke-and-mirrors" operation. Months later, that seems to be mostly the truth. I don't care to discuss whether this approach will lead to a successful business. I would like to make the point that we have a unique opportunity to establish a new industry that will be more in the hands of we the people then private multi-national corporations. I feel that is vitally important that homeowners own there system and realize the full appreciation and asset of the solar system. You would not rent a swimming pool or a tennis court...and remember all system do pay for themselves and then make money the rate of which will only improve overall in the future. We don't need the next Blockbuster or Wal-Mart of solar... Think Global...Act Local!
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February 15, 2007
Is it possible that the fossil fuel companies and utilities have brainwashed some MLM gurus into doing their bidding, setting back the solar industry by destroying consumer confidence with big promises and no follow through?
Probably not, but it's going to be interesting to see how it all plays out. In the meantime, close scrutiny of the issue is definitely deserved. We're also covering this issue over at Green Options: http://www.greenoptions.com/blog/2007/02/13/guest_post_not_all_thats_renewable_is_green_part_1_of_3 |
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February 15, 2007
Would like to edit above post slightly -- should be more clearly hypothetical --
if CR *were* to contract with a venture such as Nanosolar.... (hypothetical about how CRs plan could work) |
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February 15, 2007
On the other forum discussion, a person posted a reference to NanoSolar. Thank you! If as this person said, CR is going to contract with/work with Nanosolar in some capacity, then that may be the answer to how they accomplish what they say they are going to. Check out Nanosolar's website and you'll see that their mission is to go global, put solar films on every building, at a tremendously lower cost. And they apparently have HUGE financial backing, recently acquired space in San Jose and Berlin, and the proprietary technology that's needed to do it. It sounds like solar energy is on its way to the masses, so current contractors are going to have to adapt! They'd best see it as an great opportunity for the whole Earth!
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February 15, 2007
(BTW Jerry)
What made the Alarm less expensive is the radio transmitter. This took a great deal of the installation cost out. Now If CitizenRE (a Web Experience) has a technology which can lower the real costs of Solar, then we're all ears. But so far, it is only a petition in support of a free lunch. (Where do I sign) CitizenRe is the first attack of Rogue advertisers into a space formerly reserved for serious science. The only question is whether or not the Industry will be able to defend itself against a predictable wave of similar BS as the field becomes increasingly "popular". Ben |
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February 15, 2007
Fast Forward to after you die, what if the naysayer ar wrong about Mormonism, and the 144,000 become gods, or if the Scientologists are right and the thetans take over the earth. This "what if you're wrong and the future is like we say the future will be" is called "Propheteering". What matters is whether or not Citizenre is telling the truth TODAY.
It claims to have 650 Million invested. Is that true? The CEO is a Webjunkie. The economics of say a popular website are susceptible to viral marketing; but Solar energy is not susceptible to this kind of crap. Even a million customers on a waiting list doesn't solve the hard problem in this industry. Vertical Integration, by itself, is no magic bullet. The number of customers willing to rent their roof in exchange for bragging rights is widely known to be infinite; the challenge is getting real money, and producing a real product - both of which are being done by companies other than CitizenRe, while CR has produced 0. |
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February 15, 2007
Fast forward to 12 months from now. What will the naysayers say if the model designed by Citizenre is truly in effect? Will they then say "they will never do 100000 in one year"? Will they say it can't last they will run out of money? If this model does work, there will be a lot of solar owners wanting to get in on those installations, they may not make as much off each one as they normally did but the volume will subsitute for that. What if they are right however, will they gloat as to their exposing the wizard? This technology is coming, if not Citizenre it will be someone else.
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February 15, 2007
False Advertising is a crime precisely because it denies honest suppliers fair access to the market.
I'd be curious if CitizenRE has taken a dime from anyone. There seems to be a chance that CR will content itself with playing in the GreenPeace space - that it - a communication/education organ which serves to raise awareness, and generate lists of things, ie voters, potential customers, suckers, underemployed Ph.D's. I seems to offer a way for good-intentioned people to participate in a shared hallucination of superiority. God, where have I seen that before? Ben |
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February 15, 2007
So true, Ben. Show me the money-to create the right product, to create the mfg. plant, to create the financing. All of this is currently missing. Talk is cheap. Solar is going on buildings, i.e. Pathmark supermarkets in NJ, which I have brokered. But only with PPA's combined with rebates. Now that rebates are done in NJ, the only place left is NY with a max of 50kw, Ct (just started) and of course Arnold's lair. How I wish CR would come clean, but I fear it has nothing to come clean with. Present the list to Mr. Bush CR. Silly Con and PV is available.
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February 15, 2007
Bill sounds like he is talking about a religion more than a technology. Technical solutions do not materialize from a process which involves giving the available funds to snake-oil salesmen. Citizenre has demonstrated nothing novel to contribute to the problem. Where are the patents, the white papers, the peer review? The challenge of Solar has nothing to do with the lack of an enthusiastic market. It has to do with a limited supply of silicon, a problem which citizenre has promised to overcome on the basis of "faith"?
Give us a break - play religion on someone else's dime. Ben |
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February 15, 2007
I like where the comments are going so far. The big picture view of our planet, as seen from the moon,
would make our squabbles non existent. What we as humans need to do, is what CitizenRe has done with their business model. That simply is: to make it easy to switch to solar...end of story...we need a lot more clean, sustainable, renewable energy. We are running out of oil, coal combustion causes global warming, & do you know anyone who would like to have nuclear waste burried in their own back yard? Let's get people to switch to solar on a MASSIVE SCALE. |
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February 15, 2007
This industry is defintely coming, whether its Citizenre or another company the train is on the track and when it starts moving its going continue to build up steam and moving faster and faster.
Like the alarm industry that I come from. It cost thousands to install a residential system 20 years ago. Today if you guarantee monitoring for 36 months the system can be as low as ZERO. WHY? MASS MARKET. Mass market always changes the business model of any product. Look at; tvs,computers satelite dishes,cell phones,alarm systems and many more. All of these are lower today than 20 years ago because of mass market. Citizenre will deifintely have timline problems over the next 24 months, building a network of installing companies alone will not be easy but will be done. The executives at Citizenre should ignore all these forums and get back to building their structure. |
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February 15, 2007
Promises have already been delayed. Non-disclosure is also hampering good will. What about the built-in inverter? Something for nothing always appeals to many. Existing PPA's with commercial PV users is now common in our industry. Bundling residential customers into PPA's seems to be the plan here. But where is the material? As I've stated earlier, build up the list, David and then sell it to the highest bidder.
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February 15, 2007
We can all win if we unite all of our resources to make the "Great Plan" work. My challenge is this; Solar Industry - Are you honestly concerned with promoting green energy/clean environment, or just profit? I hope you all will step up and do what is right for our grandchildren's children, UNITE!!!!
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February 15, 2007
Question; What if Citizenre does deliver, who gets hurt? The Nay sayers? No, not even them. There is plenty of work for everyone. Citizenre is not replacing any solar company jobs. In fact, they have found a way to boost their income potential by contracting existing companies to install and service their customers. Face it, as things are right now, most homeowners cannot afford the initial capital to buy solar. So the market will only expand for everyone. Solar manufacturers, why not work with Citizenre regarding the manufacturing facility? I don't know enough about that arena to advise, but working together always makes more sense than fighting against one another. Of course, while we are fighting amongst ourselves, the big electric companies are happy. Aren't they the real enemy to mankind? Aren't we all striving toward the same goals?
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February 15, 2007
I am an associate for Citizenre. With all of the criticism thrown at Citizenre the concensus is the same; Great plan, but can they deliver? My first question is, If it is a great plan, then why aren't you exhausting your resources to assist in its delivery? Historically humans have baulked at change and rarely offer alternate solutions let alone offer help. Does Global warming worry any of you out there? Who cares if Citizenre has the money or not; let's get it! All of the Nay sayers have said it's a great plan, right? Be a part of the solution and help facilitate the plan. We all need to stop fighting amongst ourselves and unite under one flag of change, or global warming will unite us in death.
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February 16, 2007
RONNIE SAID:
Date Posted: February 16, 2007 Has anyone asked the obvious question? Where is the tangible VALUE to the homeowner? Global warming IS a real, but *how many* homeowners will "deposit" $500 or $1000 just to some pretty blue panels on their roofs and THE SAME electric rates? RONNIE, please give me a call. I will explain the whole buisiness plan to you in great detail. The customer will save money, not break even. The average utilty will increase its rates at 2.5% per year. With CitizenRe you are locking in your rate for 25 years. Call or email me. 630-553-8697 r.veach@comcast.net |
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February 16, 2007
Author:
Bill Garrison Date Posted: February 15, 2007 We can all win if we unite all of our resources to make the "Great Plan" work. My challenge is this; Solar Industry - Are you honestly concerned with promoting green energy/clean environment, or just profit? I hope you all will step up and do what is right for our grandchildren's children, UNITE!!!! RIGHT ON THE MARK,BILL! Robert Veach call with questions: 630-553-8697 |
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February 16, 2007
Are you solar contractors out there prepared to install your share of the 40+ million square feet of solar collector modules that will roll off the printing presses in San Jose, California, over the next three years? And another 40+ million square feet each year after that? Eventually, they will attract competition that will print many more millions of square feet of collectors. More efficient ways have to be found to install all this. Appliance manufacturers would be smart to produce low voltage appliances to offset the inverter shortage that will occur.
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February 16, 2007
Has anyone asked the obvious question?
Where is the tangible VALUE to the homeowner? Global warming IS a real, but *how many* homeowners will "deposit" $500 or $1000 just to some pretty blue panels on their roofs and THE SAME electric rates? Most people have kids, mortgages and car payments and need ways to SAVE money each month, not just *break even*! Solar water heating at least offers real, long term value to the customer -- real annual savings w/ a reasonable payback period. We part with our money for 1 of 5 reasons: 1) The Government says we *must* (taxes, fees, etc.), 2) We *need* something (food, etc.), 3) We *want* something... and can afford it, 4) It is taken by force/threat of force (mugger, extortionist, etc.), or 5) Someone persuades us (sometimes fraudulently) to part with it. You decide where this scheme fits. Two last thoughts: "Anything worth having is worth paying for." And, "If it sounds too good to be true, ..." |
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February 16, 2007
I have been an independent seller for a little over two months now, and admire their vision and courage. If there is one thing I could see them do way better, it is looking after their internal communication (making sure everybody is on the same page), and managing expectations - both their associates' and their customers'.
M Hoffmann, San Diego, CA |
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February 16, 2007
The sun has been pumping out energy for the last 4.5 billion years.
Now thanks to P.V.cells we have found a direct way to tap into that energy. I live for the day when we do not need power stations burning noxious fossil fuels along with power lines blotting the landscape. All we need is a roof over our head and let the sun shine in. If citizenre fails to deliver we will have a host of other companies stepping up to the plate (or roof) Mike H. founder HYDROGENHEADS |
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February 16, 2007
Well said, Nick. Thanks.
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February 16, 2007
Just a Note from Nick Panchev, CEO Ecosystem Solar Electric, Corp. www.esecorp.org
Nothing is exuberant in the Solar Electric industry. However, we have to be responsive and responsible for our acts. In our industry, there is no room for novices and amateurs. Any one can try, but without causing irreparable harm to others, who strive to balance the system, i.e. in compliance with U.S. Regulatory Agencies, not limited to SEC, the Citizens of our country and the Ecosystem. Regardless that our proposed solar/thermal plants in the aggregate of 147 MWe are just a "micron' in the vast desert, we also strive to comply with all environmental mandates, in addition to myriad of others. Therefore, let them try, as long as they comply. And allow them to "test the waters" in the meantime. And as to the rest of us, the solar boys, be aware of the big energy's boys, before they have you for a breakfast. |
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February 16, 2007
... If only zealousness could a problem solve ...
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February 16, 2007
This statement that David Gregg quoted could not be any clearer. I have been looking closely at this company for months now and have registered to represent them. I have 28 years engineering experience and have always wanted a solar system on my home. My conclusion about this company is that they are legitimate and I am willing (and so are my customers) to wait for this young company to follow through on all of their promises. I can give you an honest assessment of this company. Please join in-become a customer or an associate on my team! I promise to make you successful at promoting this great "green" technology. I live in Yorkville IL and I am committed to converting all the roofs in my town from "black tar to blue polycrystalline"! Coming to a roof near you, CitizenRE!
www.powur.com/yorkville www.jointhesolution.com/yorkville |
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February 16, 2007
Thank you, Carl. Read it and it was fair. Still we wait.
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February 16, 2007
I explore some of the technical issues with Citizenre's plan that haven't been explored in detail to date, on my blog.
greenvolts.blogspot.com Hope you find it infomative |
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February 16, 2007
Clarification...really must type slower
The message is to say you would argue with a fence post. |
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February 16, 2007
Oh, Ben! You would argue fence post. Good luck to us all...
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February 16, 2007
To Jerry's tired point about the Alarm Industry, on the off chance that there truly in a relevent analogy between the two:
As you said - a 36 month monitoring contract (at ~$19-29 per month) adds up to about $1,000 with a very high percent of continuing business - so the new cost is nearly the same as the old cost. - Mass Market has not dramatically changed the price. The same is true here. The fundamentals of the Solar business are already operating at Mass Market levels. Silicon, Alumnium, and Invertors are all produced on a grand scale. Even if CitizenRE did 100,000 units. This does not change the production costs of silicon or aluminum because it does not change their production levels significantly. I salute the spirit of those who have signed on, and advise them to keep one hand on their wallet. |
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February 16, 2007
-Ecopreneurs-crunch the numbers-they don't add up-You cannot singlehandedly drive down the cost of a product overnight that is required by a myriad of different applications.Silicon prices are affected by supply and demand-you cannot demand a supply at your price!-Raw stock prices have been floating at historic highs,and increases in demand can only increase the upward pressure-vertical integration takes time,and so does construction of a high grade silicon manufacturing facility-look at all those white coats you have to source!
Reduced costs of green energy production are admirable goals,but trumpeting unrealistic goals are irresponsible,to both the industry at large,and to the men and women who believe in a sustainable future-whether they are partaking through MLM or are currently working through channels that have actually put power on the roofs of citizens. |
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February 16, 2007
I have a plan! let's mount wind turbines over this whole discussion about citizenre,and the steady stream of hot,laminar air could power the continent!
Seriously-what I keep hearing from the "eco-preneurs" is a challenge to the industry "are you in for the profit,or to do something good"-My answer is BOTH!,and we have been doing a great job at it for decades,despite battling the incentives laden fossil fuel industry,and the horrendously subsidized nuclear cabal.Now we have an instance were the goodwill we have built up over the years can be extinguished in a matter of a few broken promises,fulfilling the "solar is a fly by night operation" BS that entrenched Big Energy has been trying to make citizens believe for years now. |
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February 16, 2007
Rhonda,
As several have said, "Wait" may be a death knell for the few Installers we have in this country. The longer the "Wait" the more people will be affected, and the more necessary new regulation will be. I would consider penning a class action suit citing illegal contracting and deceptive advertising claims. Anyone else interested in signing on to such a suit? Ben |
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February 16, 2007
Jyl:
Why do you think I'm angry? Frustrated? Yes. Many respond as though I know nothing about the industry. I've been watching it for 30 year, as well. The point is that we have to do better. Maybe this shake up will get things moving. I'm very aware that much as changed in a positive direction through the years, but it's high time this goes mainstream. Will CR be the answer? Will it set us back? No one really knows the answers yet. |
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February 16, 2007
that has worked over 100 years which is so simple: NO upfront costs to get your energy needs meant based on the operation of a CENTRALIZED power plant(s) burning inexpensive fuel (coal, natural gas and oil) and inexpensive transmission costs (mostly subsidized by the government).
It cost about 2 billion dollars to build a 1000 MW coal fired power pant in 2007 dollars. We will spend that same 2 billion on RE systems that provide on site power plants that we will own (and the customer CAN buy at some point if they want to) with NO fuel cost and NO transmission cost and we will beat the utilities at there own game each and every time. They will not be able to offer cheaper electricity until they to sell nothing but RE. We will peg our discounted electric price to their energy prices. OUR fuel and transmission is essentially free. Hard to compete with "free"! John D'Angelo Founder and CEO http://www.beutilityfree.com |
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February 16, 2007
There are some key differences in our business model from CR. One big difference is that we will install (subcontract normally) ANY RE system and not just limit installs to PV. After all a good wind location can be just as good as a good solar site.
Our basic plan is to start slow and target specific areas PV, wind and solar thermal) that have paybacks of 5-10 years FIRST and then as ENERGY prices (not just electricity) continue to rise (nationally at 2% per year) and as volume ramps up, new RE technologies come on line the economics will continue to improve. Yes we plan to have a sales force and am considering network marketing and we will not be asking for any upfront money either or purchase of any inventory. There will be some key differences as well. cont |
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February 16, 2007
BeUtilityFree, Inc has a similar business model. We are NOT a start up. We are in the early stages of raising capital (an IPO), not to build any secret PV super plants but to actually secure capital for purchase of equipment that goes on buildings. We have confidence that the IPO will go well and actually have our first on site company owned systems in 3-6 months after our initial IPO. We will use current off the shelf technology that has a track record in PV, solar thermal and wind). Installers will be "approved" and experienced installers in the locations. We have studied the CR business model and find quite a few problems with it and we feel that our business model WILL succeed. Being in the RE business (solar thermal, wind and PV) for over 25 years the main thing that stops 98% of all people from going solar (RE) is FIRST time cost.
cont |
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February 16, 2007
Ben, while I agree with your concerns, I am hopeful that other choices will arise from this controversy. Don't think for one minute that I'm snowed. It's a wait and see situation. I think we can all agree on that.
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February 16, 2007
Part two of two:
Nothing attracts workers better than "good pay", and nothing improves pay better than efficiency and high productivity. So, it seems like another very valuable contribution the experienced installers can make is in designing more efficient install methods. Do you think your brain power can solve this problem? |
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February 16, 2007
Part one of two:
Current solar installers, please jump in and correct my mistakes herein: Ass-u-me-ing, companies like NanoSolar can make very cheap roll printed cells and modules that (maybe?) are self adhesive foils, interconnected with a modular pre-fab wiring harness that uses outdoor rated flat ribbon cables to enter the structure with minimal flashing issues. And ass-u-me-ing that inverters are actually cheaper when ordered in lots of 10,000 units or more. It seams the biggest issue is skilled labor. So Mr. Bush, why are we deporting illegal immigrants instead of training them? It seems the most valuable contribution our existing experienced installers could make is in training, and trying to "grow" the industry. Of course, I am sure you are already trying to do that, to earn a better life for yourself. Perhaps all these eager ecoprenures(sp?) are willing to help with the massive number of installs it would take to actually make a difference. |
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February 16, 2007
If the Citizenre model takes off.....it will have to be installed by electrical licensed companies. most electrical contactors pay their guys by the hour..... with citizenre....the contractors who want to put out the numbers will pay by piece work. The exp. solar guys will jump ship if they are on hourly rate. It happen in the alarm industry..hourly guys do maybe one job a day and average 35-45k per year......the piece work installer does two installs every day and makes betweem 65-85k per year........are you solar installers reading this making that much?
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February 16, 2007
Ben, btw the alarm systems that were 2-5 thousand dollars, not given away were the AT+T wireless system. which after the intro of the free hardwired system put the AT+T system out of business
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February 16, 2007
To: Ben Gatti
You have no clue as to the alarm industry. What the wireless transmitters does is allow the tech. to do more installations in one day, installing the 'toy ' self contained system. They do cost muc more than a hardwire contact whichis basically what we do. the wireless contact costs 40% more than a having a sensor hardwired....it just allows the rech from going in the attic........but in the industry we hardwire as a rule whenever we can. |
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February 16, 2007
If a Company is going to use your roof, they need to pay rent and share in the savings derived from higher utility costs and carbon taxes in the future. Forget carbon taxes. We need Mercury taxes. Mercury from coal fired power plants is killing us. If our own government has to state that women should not eat fish to prevent deformed babies, then you know the problem is really, really bad. Where are the "Madd" Mothers on this issue?
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February 16, 2007
part 2
HOWEVER - as has been pointed out by many, the risk here is to an entire industry (hopefully a movement and culture shift in many of our eyes). The valid, on the ground (roof?) people actively installing solar are being harmed RIGHT NOW by the disruption of this unfair competition. There is no-way to compete with "free" solar, and my customers are confused when comparing my REAL offering with theis VAPORWARE. There are a lot of strong feelings out there, obviously a lot of hope has been placed on this as being true. I hope that sooner rather than later, what is obvious to many becomes obvious to all, and these guys are discredited and we all move on. |
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February 16, 2007
Well said Ben.
The folks behind this venture have said "will you trust us when we announce who our funders are?" I will not trust you here or there, I will not trust you anywhere. I have googled you and learned of your history of deception and MLM scams. I have watched as you "defend" your approach to solar and have concluded that the ultimate goal of this viral marketing is novel: Instead of a pyramid bringing cash up from the consumers this one seems to be designed to bring cash from "investors". Part of me says that it is their own fault if they invest without propoer due dilligence and research... risk/reward and if it fails and the insiders disapear then it is only them that are harmed (the "risk" part of capitalism). continued |
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February 16, 2007
hey Rick, there is planty of money in energy efficiency. I have worked in many different sub markets around energy efficiency, even had my own business. Lots of money being thrown at energy efficiency through the utility companies (CA)
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February 16, 2007
Rick,
Governments support activities which create jobs and tax revenues. Efficiencies fall somewhat sort on both counts. If we spent a tenth of the money we are spending to Kill Iraqis for (our) oil on alternative sources, I'm quite confident we would be closer to a sustainable economy than endless oil wars will achieve. But many Americans continue to support the Blood-for-Oil policies of our current Christian administration. |
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February 16, 2007
Ben,
You make a good point that Energy Efficiency is undersupported across the board. Why is that? Maybe because it is hard for anyone to figure out how to make money at it. I wouldn't be too fast to judge whether more regulation is a bad thing. De-regulation of the utility industry has only made our energy prices go up and all the profits go to corporate shareholders. Re-investment in R&D and basic grid infrastructure is now 15 years behind schedule and getting worse by the month. Large scale distributed generation and energy efficiency could do more to solve economic AND ecological problems than building more power plants, fighting wars over oil, or reforesting the rain forest. |
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February 16, 2007
Jyl,
Do you ever wonder if the Daid and Golieth metaphor is over-simplified. In fairness to the Industry, it has a real job of delivering huge amounts of power every second of evry day. That is a mammoth TASK, and requires pretty large operations to achieve. It seems to me that as the public get on board with renewable, the Industry will reflect that. In my opinion, renewable energy is principally a technical challenge with healthy public support. (Energy efficiency on the other hand is undersupported across the board) |
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February 16, 2007
Hmmm, Rent2Own - a great idea?
First - it's hardly new or novel. There are companies with real products who manage the financing aspect. In fact Every company in the US with a product in this price range has a working relationship with a financier. Putting everything together under one roof does very little to improve the end result. The whole is the sum of the parts, and the minor efficiencies - when compared to the purchase price - are underwhelming. CitizenRE do not solve any real problem in the industry. The odds are highest that their net effect will be to impose new regulations on RE. Not a good thing. These econpreneurers are coming soon to a hearing near you, where they will cry and explain how they invested their last living penny in promoting a product they thought was wonderful, and how the government must protect them from scam artists like Enron. |
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February 16, 2007
As for CR - I second the postings of Ben Gatti and won't waste space with repetition. I think he has laid out my concerns (as a RE industry professional) about the smear to the industry if this doesn't work. Its one thing to support a new model - fine if you go out and get duped and good for you if you only lose your valuable time and your idealism, but CR has made huge promises and sought media attention without delivering anything and with at best "deceptive" statements - if not "legally" fraudulent. But I prefer the EBay model, go out build a community, show that it works and money and resources will rush to your success. The last thing we need is a RE bubble brought on by speculators and con artists.
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February 16, 2007
Thank you Ben Gatti!
The CR model strives to provide 'all your annual electric needs' with a PV system owned and installed by CR. Their compensation is provided by the sale of power, incentive programs and 'economies of scale'. Incentives, in those states that have them, cap in the production range of about 1/4 to 1/3 of average of 'all your annual electric needs'. That cap,m in dollars, is often between 40% and 60% of the of the cost of the noted production range. And those states with no incentives? Probably would not attract CR types. And one last thing people,as you reach for the thermostat and light switch for safety, comfort and convienence, please keep solar energy and alternative energy out of the same sentence. Without solar energy, nothing else matters. |
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February 16, 2007
Rhonda, Renewable energy is not simply a disruptive technology - a technology paradigm shift - like the cell phone, the computer and the internet (the adoption rates of these seem to be your standard). It is David going up against Goliath -- entrenched, highly subsidized and tax-favored utilities and energy producers (coal, oil, gas), regulation and tax treatment that favors large scale rather than decentralized energy production to the point of absurdity (look into "synthetic coal" tax breaks), relatively low energy prices that inhibit competition, and consumers that have been programmed to purchase Hummers and granite countertops over solar. You are naive to think that the problems in the RE industry are the result of lack of effort on their part. Even the subsidies required to make RE work are in large part due to the very real regulatory and policy distortions and monetary subsidies. This is where you should be directing your anger.
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February 16, 2007
Citizenre, what a great idea. I am not a scientist but I am in marketing for the green industry. What I read so far is as good as ANY multi-level marketing plan I have ever read. The exception is I have personally seen Amway products, Shaklee products and all the others. I have also seen at least pictures of where the products are made and can order them with a confirmed delivery date. So far, I have not those things from Citizenre. If I had I'd push them on people here in the desert so fast everyone's head would spin. Regarding unseen documented proof it can happen...Like the saying goes, "Put up or shut up."
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February 16, 2007
Citizenre, what a great idea. I am not a scientist but I am in marketing for the green industry. What I read so far is as good as ANY multi-level marketing plan I have ever read. The exception is I have personally seen Amway products, Shaklee products and all the others. I have also seen at least pictures of where the products are made and can order them with a confirmed delivery date. So far, I have not those things from Citizenre. If I had I'd push them on people here in the desert so fast everyone's head would spin. Regarding unseen documented proof it can happen...Like the saying goes, "Put up or shut up."
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February 16, 2007
Michael,
In Principle ENRON sounds like a great idea, In practice, it spelled the end of open competition and a free-er market for energy. It was in the end a huge set-back for consumers of energy, and helped to return this country to the socialist and monopolistic energy policies of the last 75 years. They are selling the goodwill of an industry - a product they have not produced. |
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February 16, 2007
Rhonda,
I have waited thirty years for a flying car, and I share your disappointment, but stamping your foot, and being scammed by the first person to whisper sweet nothings in your ear, is not going to make your dreams come any faster. Sadly, it will only make them come more slowly. Because of your valid concerns about asthma for example, that you should protect your goals from those who would abuse the public trust and goodwill. Everyone wants the pyramid scheme to work as promised. Nothing could be better. The problem is that SOMEONE has to DO THE WORK. CitizenRe is all about buzz and "Marketing" but there is no real work being done. |
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February 16, 2007
Give these guys a break;in principle it sounds like a great idea.
They are selling sunshine not moonshine. Mike H. |
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February 16, 2007
William,
The payback period for Home PV is longer than the payback period for investing the S&P 500. So while one "could" make money, it is quite probably that such a scheme would return less money than investing in the stock market. People invest in Solar because they believe in a clean environment. That is why there is no 650 Million forthcoming here. Smart money is smart money, and this is not a smart investment. A Better investment is to produce a product people WANT to buy for non-economic reasons (ice cream, fast cars, pv - they are all more sexy than economic). |
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February 16, 2007
Appreciate your comments, Ben, but 30 years is long enough for anyone. I realize thing are "better", but you have to admit that it's over due for some real change here.
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February 16, 2007
I have a question for you licensed installers out there. If you received the government rebates and installed an efficient solar system for 0 dollars and the customer paid you for the electric produced, could you make a profit over time if you did this in bulk?
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February 16, 2007
Rhonda,
The PV Industry has gone from ~7% efficiency to ~40% efficiency during that 30 years. The cost of PV has dropped from $100's per watt to $5 per watt in 30 years. There are global pressures on price which you have missed (Germany is subsidizing Solar keeping up the price), and OPEC is careful to keep the price of oil low enough to prevent competition. Your heart is in the right place. But so was the heart of all those people who lost their savings to Enron. Ben |
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February 16, 2007
That's right Ben. We are facing the very real possibility of legislative backlash. Please CR, be careful. We all would love to see solar take it's rightful place at the table. My question again to any CR sales rep, who is going to do the installs??????
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February 16, 2007
On Contracting ...
All States require "Contractors" to be licenses, particulalry electrical contractors. If CitizenRe is "Contracting" for electrical work - even without an exchange of money - in states where it does not have an active license to contract, IMO it is violating existing regulations. My view is that the Industry should act quickly to curtail any deceptive practices - as it will lead to overzealous legislation in the end. Ben |
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February 16, 2007
You know, I will be glad when this is settled so we can get down to business. Look, the bottom-line is that the solar industry/utilities have had 30 plus years to make solar affordable and available to commoners. They've done nothing!! It's time change regardless if CR fails or succeeds. Finally, after being introduced 30 years ago, the Department of Energy in DC is going solar. I find that insulting. What took them so long? Surely, not money! A crisis? Bad excuse. Utility companies plan to build 850 more coal fired plants in the next 5 years. Does that sound like they are committed to solar? There is a group in Texas right now fighting the proposed 18 plant for their state. 17 are planned for Illinois. Asthma has increase 74% since the 80's.
If you think that industry or the Feds are going to do anything other than take our money and run you are disillusioned. Now who doing the scamming? |
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February 16, 2007
Rick
No one is afraid of "competition" The fear, as expressed over and over again, is that a high profile failure will paint the honest competitors with a broad brush. ENRON was bad, not just for Enron, but for the entire power industry. In addition, an industry which fails to regulate itself, and allows ENRONS to rise to the top by deceptive practies - quickly invites government regulation, and subsequent ineffieciencies. The honest players are justified in defending the integrity of their industry. And it has nothing to do with "being scared of the competition". If anything CitizenRe would benefit existing installers, as they would be the natural candidates for leading positions with that company. |
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February 16, 2007
The sales force is out there "selling" systems with little or no actual knowledge of what it takes to install a viable system that is installed properly and can collect on the rebate. You can't just throw panels up and expect rebate dollars (which are needed at this point for economic viability). You need engineering and design, taking into consideration roof pitch, angle, inclination, shading, latitude... Is CR going to support it's own grassroots installation teams. Where is the labor going to come from? I can hardly keep up with hiring qualified persons in my operation.
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February 16, 2007
My question again to the CR sales force. Who is going to install these systems? The existing solar installation industry is busy, busy, busy expanding and installing. If CR comes into the territory where I install and asks me to install for them (after I pay a $75,000 franchise fee) for less than I can make doing what I do every day, I will say no thank you. CR has a serious implementation problem even if the infrastructure gets built to support it.
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February 16, 2007
The industry is not constrained for the lack of a "Lending Tree" paradigm; that is, a way for borrowers and lenders to come together efficiently. It is constrained by technology, and citizenre offers little other than hype.
I believe it's unfair (deceptive) business practice even to "reserve your system today" when such a system does not exist, and there are no reasonable provisions in place to provide such a system. Such are forward looking statements, and quite probably violate state and federal laws. I expect a class action lawsuit and prison time are on the horizon. Can anyone say ENRON? Ben |
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February 16, 2007
Rick,
There is good cause here or concern. 1. The CEO has no history in Renewable Energy 2. The company has no intellectual property 3. The company has no product 4. The company is advertising the growth of its customers to attract salespeople. 5. The company is advertising the growth of its salespeople to attract customers. 4 & 5 appear to be a vicious circle. History has seen Pyramid scheme's before, and this unfortunately looks much more like a pyramid scheme than it looks like a contribution to a problem. As you know, the challenge in this industry is fundamental physics - the production of high-purity silicon. The challenge is NOT demonstrating a huge number of potential customers. |
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February 16, 2007
Jon Beck... Congrats on being able to afford your own system. Anyone out there that has the money or the equity should buy solar now, in my opinion. But with a huge number of Americans using every penny of equity in their homes, and having negative savings rates, that is not a realistic option. To truly get solar to the 'masses' it has to be a small initial investment. There are lots of ways to do this, including, but not limited to the Citizenre plan.
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February 16, 2007
I agree that the MLM concept has a bad reputation, but all other MLM's I have heard of require some buy-in. This does not. I do NOT have to be a customer to be a sales associate. That means I do NOT have to pay any $500 deposit unless I want PV panels on my home. What's not legit about that?
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February 16, 2007
I was designing a system for my home in November, I heard about CR. I was very interested until I found out that local representatives were skateboarders and housewives who knew nothing except the hollow promises CR told them. The claims to me were outrageous. I opted to go ahead and purchase my own system. I think I made the right decision!!!!
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February 16, 2007
MLM. $500 deposit. Say no more.
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February 16, 2007
5) Many, many, many companies have started with one large purchase order BEFORE they have any manufacturing capability. This is the same thing, but with many small purchase orders.
I don't see how anybody can call this a scam if they are not asking anyone for money. If you don't like it, fine, don't sign up. Customers will still come to any legitimate business for PV. If you have a legitimate installation company, you will still have customers, and if Citizenre is successful, they could use your skills and talents to install and service systems. I'm confused why the industry insiders are afraid of some good ole' capitalist competition. If anyone wants to talk more off line, you can reach me at ricksphd@earthlink.net |
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February 16, 2007
4) For anyone that has tried to start up a company, you know there are several ways to get that first big chunk of money. One way is to prove you have a customer base, then go to the bank and convince them your information is accurate. What better way than getting people to sign a forward rate agreement (FRA) upfront? No money has changed hands, so the customer is not committed. All they have to do is never approve the site plan, and they will never owe any money.
cont |
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February 16, 2007
Christina,
I'm only aware of large-scale solar thermal systems, not residential-scale solar thermal systems such as you describe. Can you recommend any sources? |
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February 16, 2007
I am all for any reasonable method of bringing Alternative Energy production to market, so I am interested in watching CR. However, being in Commercial Real Estate and having built my own commercial ventures, if there is anything going on in most any metro area, there would be evidence of rezonings, public hearings, and the like. Even if there is a potential for operations of any size scale, there would be public record of it.
Municipalities do have an interest in this system, for their own use as well as for that of their citizens. The free market economy will soon see if CR bears fruit. |
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February 16, 2007
3) People need to understand that many, many companies start on a wing and a prayer. This company has a decidedly great concept that people can legitimately be skeptical about until more information is released. But calling the whole operation a scam without having enough information in front of you is just plain egocentric. It means you are assuming things that have not been said. People in this thread are talking about the "fact" that investors HAVE INVESTED $650M. I believe the web site says investors ARE INVESTING $650M. There is a big difference in those two statements. From a marketing perspective, it may boarder on deceptive, but it is not fraudulent. Investing $650M can take months, or even years for deals to close.
cont. |
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February 16, 2007
2) If you look at Citizenre's website, you can see that they are not partnering with Nanosolar, but will be using tried and true multicrystalline silicon technology for their modules. Nanosolar is trying to develop CIGS (Copper Indium Gallium Diselenide) thin film modules. Multicrystalline Silicon is the workhorse of the industry supplying something like 94% of all new module production. Technology to be licensed from NREL could significantly reduce costs. There is legitimate concern that licensing technology from NREL is risky. Again, for the sake of disclosure, I used to work at NREL, and in fact, worked on some of those very technologies we are talking about. They were primarily developed by some very bright people in our group, and there is no fundamental reason that they will not work. There will be some engineering scale up issues to deal with, but that's standard procedure for any company scaling up technology.
cont. |
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February 16, 2007
Citizenre has a plan to make solar affordable. A panel on every roof, much like a chicken in every pot. The idea is noble. A good one. I've owned my own system for over four years. It hasn't yet paid for itself but I'm close. I took money out of my pocket to put in solar because I believed in the sales pitch -- rebate + solar panels = lower energy costs down the road and increases the value of my home. Simple. True. Now here comes Citizenre with a new plan. I hope it works. The country needs it to work.
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February 16, 2007
Does this add credibility to Citizenre, or just prove that I am an optimistic fool? I don't know yet, but the fact that no-one has asked me for one dime of money lends all the credibility I need to patiently work with them. There have been lots of PV start-ups that have failed in the past, some of which probably made big, unfounded press announcements.
The PV industry has withstood a lot, and continues to grow at record rates. If Citizenre ends up unable to secure financing, the most significant impact on the PV industry will be added press coverage and an increase in awareness by consumers. If it makes some of them skeptical of all PV integrators, then they haven't done their homework and probably would have been skeptical for some other reason anyway. |
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February 16, 2007
I have read every one of the 200 posts on this week earlier thread, and the 19 posts above. I have a couple of comments to share. By way of disclosure, yes, I signed up as a sales associate. In fact, I have offered my services, some of which will be for free, to help Citizenre succeed. Here are a couple of points to consider:
1) Dr. Richard George, claims to be an expert in PV since he can do data mining and pull statistics out of processes and industries. I have no doubt he is very good at what he does. I have worked with data miners before and I admire their ability to crunch numbers. My Ph.D., however, is actually in photovoltaic materials research (Masters in solar thermal physics). I have grown crystals, done process development, equipment design and optimization. |
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February 16, 2007
The biggest appeal of renewable for me is that individuals can own their own system, be out from under the control of energy companies and not pay taxes on the energy used. Until the cost of PV reflects the true manufacturing cost, Residential Solar Thermal systems using a turbine and low temperature working fluids such as freon or butane would be a good way for individuals to generate their OWN Power.
Renewables offer us an opportunity to be energy independent, to stop funding terrorists and polluters. |
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February 16, 2007
PV has stepped out onto the battlefield with sword in hand. With no thought to the carnage that is to come or the amount of blood that will be spilled, seeing only a glorious victory on the battlefield this day they stand their ground as solid as the mountain. Then abruptly a challegne is made, the air fills with hollers moving down the ranks, the order to advance, the solders move forward.....
I geuss we will have to wait for the rest of the story. "There is an old saying around here. "If you cant run with the big dogs then stay on the porch." |
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February 16, 2007
To Bill G., I have lived off grid for over twenty years and my family and I typically use less electricity than any single lighted billboard along the I-95 corridor*. How can Citizenre benefit us?
*Based on a comparitive 24 hour period assuming a billboard lighted with 2 conventional 400 watt metal halide lamps burning for 8 hours each night. To Divid A., The PV industry itself has destroyed my confidence in the PV industry. I have read nothing but how the PV industry has been raking it in, hand over fist, while at the same time I see advertised prices for PV modules going up and up, and complaining they cant get a fair share of government dollars to fund thier R&D. When PV was grassroots I was all for it becoming main stream but now that I've seen what it has become I wonder, should it have stayed grassroots? |
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February 17, 2007
http://www.edbegley.com/forum/
Ed Begley Jr. has shut down his fan forum, And his site currently makes no mention of CitizenRE. Is there any confirmation that he is withdrawing his endorsement? |
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February 17, 2007
Well, Ben, I can see you still can't spell my name right.
I don't why I waste my time with someone who would argue with fence post. You are totally off base about me. As I've said it's a wait and see thing. Why don't you wait until there is concrete evidence before you judge us all. Sally, this may not work out, but it sure feels good to wear and share the "possibilities", doesn't it? In the meantime, keep the faith! |
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February 17, 2007
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February 17, 2007
Petition for the SEC to investigate CitizenRE
Please consider joining a Petition to place CitizenRe under investigation b the SEC. This will prevent anyone getting injured by their zeal for Solar Energy. http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/208387720 |
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February 17, 2007
i'm one of millions of people with busy lives who just want to Go Solar but can't even dream of it because they lack the money and/or the moxie to get a system that will work and keep on working. another concern is not knowing how soon whatever system chosen would become obsolete, putting another pile of obsolescence into our landfills. one of the great things about rental is that obsolete components will be traded out and better managed into reuse/recycling because of the economy of scale.
i had a solar hot water system installed while building this house 30+ years ago and it worked great here in WV, until it froze and burst because the contractor installed it wrong... i know solar works, if this and if that...but because of all the ifs, the only way that solar can go mainstream is through the Citizenre Rent to Go Solar. i am thankful that i have been given the option, and i will continue to enthusiastically pass the word on to anyone who will listen to me. s shepherd |
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February 17, 2007
...
CitizenRe is lining up buyers for an unregulated and unprotected energy futures trade. Whether it installs 100,000 roofs or two roofs makes no difference if what it wants most is a huge block of unfunded energy shorts. These shorts either pay off big - or the company goes bankrupt under the swan song - sorry we tried to change the world. This IMO is a matter for the sec. The selling of futures is carefully regulated for all the right reasons. |
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February 17, 2007
A Few More Crimes (IMO):
on their page: "You lock in your electric rate for as long as 25 years. Try THAT with your current electric utility. The average consumer will save $1,000's." This statement is a promise about the performance of an energy futures contract - the selling of which is CitizenRe principle business. Energy is currently experiencing a remarkable, and arguably unsustainable peak in price. Over 25 years, the chances that energy prices, or the dollar in general, will be lower than the current war-driven price are substantial. |
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February 17, 2007
Criminality of CitizenRe
Here is a list of how CitizenRe is breaking the law (IMO) 1. Their principle product is an insurance policy against future rate increases. I doubt they have the necessary liquidity to meet state requirements on Insurance. 2. Another view is that their principle product is an energy futures contract. Again I doubt they are licensed to sell futures in any state, nor do they have the liquidity on hand to deliver on that promise. 3. They are conspiring. 5 or more people engaged in the commission of a crime is a conspiracy. "Independent Agents" may be signing on for a criminal record. 4. They are violating the Sherman/Clayton Act by advertising a commodity for less than the rational cost, in a manner which injures competition. This is an opinion, not an allegation, but injured parties should be thinking about filing such a suit. |
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February 17, 2007
Rhonda says "WE can turn CR into a great thing - its a mater of perception"
Plueeze. This kind of "Faith is substance" mantra is creepy. My guess Rhonda, is that, 99% of CR associate truebelievers, have nothing other than their enthusiasm to contribute to the real problems of renewable energy, and they believe that by taking the pledge of solar celebacy (which is what CitizenRe is) they can be part of the solution.Sadly, renewable energy is not restricted by an absence of enthusiasm, it is limited by real technical and scientific hurdles. It would ever so much better if the enthusiastic would enroll in a serious school, and spend their energies on hard problems, rather than distracting people with pyramid schemes and faith-based science. |
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February 17, 2007
John DAngelo, The plan is to sell installation "franchises" for the right to install the CR sold systems. The last number I heard was $75,000 to buy a franchise. Like buying a subway sandwich franchise, except the labor pool for solar installation is much more competitive.
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February 17, 2007
The concept of putting PV on every acceptable roof in the U.S. is the ultimate goal. Business is business though and CitizenRE's numbers don't add up. For the CitizenRE associates reading this, there is a reason why 4 Regional Sales Directors "resigned" in the past few weeks. Faith is amazing, but blind faith can lead you off a cliff.
The world is in need of many more non Big-Oil owned PV manufacturer's like Suntech Power. "Suntech has increased its total PV cell production output target in 2007 from 250MW to 280MW. Suntech has also raised its expected 2007 year end PV cell production capacity target from 390MW to 420MW. (read more.) |
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February 17, 2007
One thing that I cannot figure out and no one has mentioned (at least that I have read). CR says they have 650 million dollars from investors (to be announced) for JUST a PV plant. That money will all go towards the PLANT and nothing more, right?
No one has told us where the money will come from to pay the installers, the BOS, the PV modules (yes they have to be manufactured AND paid for because one does not make PV modules for FREE)and the sales commissions for the marketing arm. Anyone have an answer for that? Associates, CEO, Rob, please step forward! I doubt if I will get a reply or if I do they will say. Oh that money will come later.....after the PV plant comes on line, right? No money has changed hands because my educated guess is they have no money to install anything at this time. John D'Angelo http://www.beutilityfree.com |
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February 17, 2007
Another worthy goal of Unity is support of higher gas taxes. The current price of gas falls well short of paying the full cost of fossil fuel consumption - and therefore encourages Single Passenger Hummers and Walmart while discouraging Carpools, Bicyclists and corner stores.
If we view CitizenRe as a petition for change - that aspect is good. However if we view CitizenRe as a promise NOT to buy Solar (as in Wait for the Second Coming to fullfil the promised free lunch) - That probably isn't as good. All it takes is a momentary decline in Solar Sales to spell the end of real investment in that sector. |
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February 17, 2007
Ben said:
If this Unity gets people to the polls on fair treatment for Renewable - that's progress. That's my whole point, Ben. If CR doesn't make it the numbers and experience could help this momentum. WE can turn CR's fate or failure into a great thing. It's all a matter of perception. BTW...my name is Ronda..no h. |
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February 17, 2007
There is a widely accepted order of business:
Create a product Test/demonstrate the product Sell the product Why should we give any credibility to a company doing it backwards? |
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February 17, 2007
Re: United etc ...
In fairness to Rhonda and Robert - there are valuable things which "Unity" can accomplish. Currently Oil and Nuclear power are subsidized by the government at a much higher accumulated level than renewable energy - If this Unity gets people to the polls on fair treatment for Renewable - that's progress. Also, there is a great cost to pollution - to say nothing of Global Warming. If Unity can push a mercury tax, or even a carbon tax - in order to reflect the truer cost of fossil fuels, that's progress. There is also a small value in aggregating a large customer base through the paperwork process, though this value is small relative to the $30,000 price of a system. In exchange - the risks of a Solar ENRON are quite large, and dwarf the benefits. The Goodwill currently held by the renewable field is being leveraged in a pyramid scheme. That's not a good thing. |
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February 17, 2007
Bryan said: Every one I have met in the industry (20 years) is in it for the right reasons; passion for the planet, love, peace blah blah blah.
I don't doubt this, but if all you united, as Bill as mentioned, the CR plan could work regardless of who really gets it done. We need to look at the big picture and not our wallets. I too want grandchildren and beyond to have clean air. |
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February 17, 2007
How arrogent you are Robert Veach. Every one I have met in the industry (20 years) is in it for the right reasons; passion for the planet, love, peace blah blah blah. Profit is just a way for us to feed our children so we can continue to spread the message. The "great plan" (no caps) is a noble idea but has no meat to sustain it.
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February 18, 2007
My email address and toll free phone number is there as well. I will be available to discuss any issue you may have regarding anything you find. The wesites are; jointhesolution.com/northerncalifornia designed to inform potential customers and allow them to register on line; powur.com/northerncalifornia is designed to inform potential associates and allow them to register on line. I would further invite you to become an associate, even though you have no intention of promoting our program. As an associate you will access to all communications and information, etc. available to all associates. There are also support tickets where you can ask corporate any questions you might have. I feel that before you bash something you should do your homework. This is my professional courtesy to you, my invitation.
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February 18, 2007
Ben, I had, until now assumed that you hadn't truly researched the Citizenre websites because of the many misconceptions and misrepresentations you have described in your diatribe. However, now you have given clear evidence that you hadn't and now I no longer have to assume such a thing. While your communication skills need work, you do have some valid issues that need to be addressed. However, it will take real men and women of intellect and heart in proper proportion. I further realize that you won't really understand what I mean, but that is not really important right now. What I will do is invite you to visit my Citizenre website to gather whatever is available to any literate individual.
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February 18, 2007
Rick,
Enron was successful in derailing a move away from a regulated (socialistic) energy policy toward deregulated (capitalistic) energy market. If you believe that capitalism provides a higher standard of living - then you might take the view that Enron has in fact negatively impacted the energy market. There is no plant because there is no product. With 7,000 customers, surely the "product" exists on at least one roof right? Tell you what - find that house on google maps - and let everyone see it. Ben |
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February 18, 2007
Yeah, Terry, Ron is good. It's short and has three letters like Ben. Gee, we would finally have something in common.
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February 18, 2007
I think you'd need to go with Ron, but hey it's good to "represent" here as Ronda.
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February 18, 2007
Hey, Terry! Maybe I should change my name to Ronnie! Would I get more respect then? Seems to me that even men trying to "talk" to Ben is a waste of time. I've given up. My life too valuable. Thanks for the smile!
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February 18, 2007
Terry,
Like many of those here, I have done various studies on Solar energy, where the costs are located, and the opportunities for influencing those costs. The concerns regarding CitizenRe are quite valid, and a reasonable company needs to get heir ducks in order before they start with the promises. CitizenRe has started backwards and many of think there is a reason. The Industry is a prime candidate for scams, because many customers wouldn't even know if their panels were working or not - and the motivating factors are more social than economic. I feel it is worth the effort to avoid an embarrassing fiasco associated with renewable energy. Ben |
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February 18, 2007
Rick,
Provided you are correct abou being able to walk away in an adverse market - that would change the nature of the contract. I haven't seen the clause you describe - what I have seen is "Lock in rates for 25 years" Which is here: http://www.sunpowur.us/?gclid=CNC50aS4tooCFQzqgAodbFPJQA Perhaps you can point to the clause you mention? Ben |
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February 18, 2007
"stamping your foot, and being scammed by the first person to whisper sweet nothings in your ear, is not going to make your dreams come any faster." Ben...
Huh???????????? Ronda, Once I read "whisper sweet nothings in your ear" I knew that any one who posts here with a female name is wasting their time with Ben. He knows perfectly well how to spell your name, but seems to have let some other issues get the better of him. lol |
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February 18, 2007
Ben,
Citizenre does disclose assumptions, and they explicity say that if the price of energy goes down, the consumer will have to weigh the energy savings by removing their PV system with the size of their deposit and determine if they want to walk away from their contract, which they would be able to do. |
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February 18, 2007
Ben,
So if they started collecting $.08/kwh from me every month before I had my solar panels, I would agree with you, but until that happens, they have not sold me anything. If they get the finanacial backing they suggest is in the works, they will have ample financial backing. Those in this thread that suggest otherwise have not run the numbers very well. $650M will cover the initial targeted 100 MW of production twice over. Then revenue streams will start kicking in which will balance the books. It is an optimistic timeline, but there is not major flaw in the financial logic that I have seen. |
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February 18, 2007
Advertising the future value of a futures contract is the most blatant sort of securities fraud.
No one knows what the future price of energy will be. A Legitimate installer will show the projected payback period and disclose the assumptions (8% discount rate etc...) But this is not a contract to pay the difference between the projected payback and the actual payback. (BTW - I'm hardly going to bang on Wikipedia's nuclear bias here - but I would encourage others to hold them to a higher standard on the subject) Ben |
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February 18, 2007
Ben, I would suggest you provide real facts and good references with your comments for future credibility. We all like to sound smart, but as soon as the first flaw in your arguement shows up, you lose credibility. Regarding CitizenRe, you are treading on thin ice regarding class action suits, in my opinion. Just because the plant may be running behind schedule (because they were investigating another state's desire to host the plant and provide incentives), doesn't mean they cannot succeed. Yes, they will have some start up problems. Yes, they may take longer to scale up some of the novel technologies. But that does not mean they are breaking the law.
Time will tell if they are successful. The industry is strong enough and has enough momentum that Citizenre's success or failure will not derail the momentum. It might add to it, or it might cause others to be more creative on getting PV in the hands of consumers at low up-front cost. That's how cometition works. |
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February 18, 2007
Rick,
According to the Web Page I reference, citizenRE (Powur) is offering: 1. "You lock in your electric rate for as long as 25 years." 2. "The average consumer will save $1,000's." Locking in the price of something you intend to purchase in the future is known as a "futures" contract. Futures contracts are a form of "Insurance" against certain risks. Futures contracts are regulated in this country exactly to prevent fly-by-nighters from selling a product (a contract with potential future value of "Thousands of Dollars") Without proper financial backing. Ben |
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February 18, 2007
Apparently Ben has done this sort of thing before as shown below from his arbitration case on Wikipedia:
Statement by Katefan0 I first encountered Benjamin Gatti when I responded to an RFC filed on the article Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act. I quickly realized that Benjamin edited from a strong anti-nuclear/pro-renewable energy viewpoint. [2] [3] [4] This would not be a problem, except that Benjamin was not properly sourcing contributions, and often inserted essay-like, blatantly biased opinion as fact. I chalked this up to inexperience and tried to show him Wikipedia's policies, taking pains to demonstrate how to properly source criticisms, and how to attribute assertions of opinion to groups. (Which he responded in one instance by suggesting I was trying to censor him [5]). While Benjamin has been most disruptive for the longest period of time on energy-related articles, he has made disruptive edits across numerous unrelated articles. |
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February 18, 2007
Claiming they are selling insurance is like you claiming you know anything about the law.
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February 18, 2007
Ben,
How can you claim CitizenRE is selling an insurance policy any more than a standard solar thermal or PV installer does when he/she shows the breakeven curve which ALWAYS has an energy inflation value calculated into it? If you assume energy prices stay the same, these technologies would take twice as long to pay back, or more. The only difference in this business model, as compared to hundreds or thousands of other early-stage technology companies is that they are taking reservations in advance. No, wait, that is not even different. Companies line up purchase orders for product long before they have the capability or capacity to build the product all the time. Is that illegal? |
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February 18, 2007
This is America and we have free speech. No matter what advice is offered to citizenry, educated or wishful thinking, the words of P.T Barnum always prevail. Events will play out and much hard cash of some will go down the drain.
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February 18, 2007
Given that CR is selling an Insurance policy - I suggest it is dangerous to wait to determine their credability.
Insurance carriers are required to maintain adequate liquidity to fullfil their promises - otherwise they are merely profitting off the premiums - with no ability to pay. If Energy prices go down, CitizenRE will reap a windfall, if energy prices go up - and they have no resouces to meet the difference, they will simply be forced into Bankrupcy Prevent another Enron Ben |
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February 18, 2007
If CR can get all their ducks in a row, I'll be one of the loudest endorsers they could have. Right now all I see are empty promises and "explanations". CR, please get your act together. You have the spotlight not only for yourselves but for the industry. What are you goining to do with it? In other words, where's the beef?
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February 18, 2007
Please note: Citizenre is already a member of the associations (SEIA, SEPA, ASES, ISES, IREC, and ACORE) at the national level. So if you are looking for validation, I recommend that you visit each of the organizations and see us on their membership list.
However, to further your due diligence process, the Company was originally incorporated as The Citizens' Electric Corporation in September of 2005 and subsequently changed its name to The Citizenre Corporation in June of 2006. I hope this helps. |
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February 18, 2007
Please do not jump to conclusions so quickly : http://www.livingwithed.net
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February 19, 2007
BEN GATTI;
CitizenRe and its indepenedent ecopreneurs have not collected a dime from anyone, so good luck with your legal petitions. As far as liability for the INDEPENDENT ecopreneurs, If Shaklee was found out to be selling corn starch in their vitamins, do you think all the 200,000 INDEPENDENT sellers would be liable? The more I communicate with CTO and the CEO of this company, and Rob Styler, the more positive I feel about their brilliant solution. If this company waited for a product and then implemented a buisiness plan, it would be copied almost overnight. They want to be first out the gate, which would make their brand the top one for many years to come. Lets all stop being so paranoid. www.jointhesolution.com/yorkville www.powur.com/yorkville |
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February 19, 2007
The CitizenRe buisiness model is not a pyramid,it is a multilevel marketing plan. Multilevel marketing is now being used by several fortune 500 corporations today. It is even taught at tha Harvard Buisiness School. There is no better and fair way to market a product or service that requires a fair amount of explanation.
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February 19, 2007
Does anybody know who the investors are behind CitizensRe, and how much they have invested?
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February 19, 2007
Ben, I applaud your dedication to the post, and hope you continue to bring logic to a largely faith-based argument (pending ecopreneur factual response to questions).
There doesn't appear to be anything 'wrong' (other than the pyramid) with the CitizenRe model to me from a success standpoint. I don't like it, but I don't like tomatoes either. If it can be done, great. The issue I have however, is whether or not the advertised model components are actually in place (now or near) and can be achieved. There currently appear to be no answers to some very fundamental questions from a practical/technical standpoint regarding construction, manufacturing, installation, and financial backing. I think we can all agree that the advertised goal is admirable, but the issue is that there are potentially massive ramifications to its failure (industry trust, backlash legislation, customer loss of time/money) if these practical aspects are not addressed. |
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February 19, 2007
CitizenRe Spokespersons: What would help the rest of us gain insight and potentially alleviate skepticism regarding CitizenRe would be to simply respond to Ben's questions/points (even if you personally think they are garbage) with an actual response to the question; rather than citing faith (as your sales manager has probably done to you), insulting the other party on a personal level (this means you Bill), or directing questions to your personal spot on CitizenRe's website, as it comes across as an attempt to generate possible business. Jim, thank you for your level and productive attitude from the CitizenRe camp.
My impression is that Ben is interested in the success of renewable energy, it is the reason he wants to protect the industry from harm. Accord some respect of that fact, accept that there are two sides, and put your efforts to furthering everyone's understanding. |
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February 19, 2007
For Jim & Bill, ecopreneurs,
1. First your replies do not indicate where there is a single roof with CitizenRe installed. 2. They also do not indicate where the contract allows customers to drop the agreement should energy prices actually DROP. 3. CitizenRE has not demonstrated the financial liquidity necessary to satisfy its futures contract if energy prices RISE. 4. Why does a company spend more time on its EULA than on its product? (Why is the contract finished and ready years before the product is even on a single roof) 5. Why does the "product" work in Seattle (ie States with less sun) 6. Why is citizenRe advertising loudly its customer count when it has no customers only leads? The answer to all of these question poins to my conclusion that CitizenRe is either all bluster, or more probably - is an energy futures scam. Ben |
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February 19, 2007
The CitizenRE program seems to only offer inflation protection by locking in the end-user's present electric costs. Any 'associates' would be well-advised to partner with their local solar installers to offer system ownership as well as rental. The main appeal, as I see it, of Alternate Energy, is that people have the oportunity to own their own energy supply.
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February 19, 2007
For the record "John D'Angelo" once you progress through the initial stages of your business I'm highly suggest you don't take your business model the direction of MLM - your name alone (whether you know it or not) will set you back years - and will continue to plague you should you go MLM, due to one scoundrel who has many aliases already having run many, many thousands of good people through the mud with his string of MLM scams... better known as Phil Piccolo.
Best of luck to everyone and I look forward to be an active follower and supporter of CR. Jim |
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February 19, 2007
What I can attest to is after reviewing about 99% of the info and going through the training that is available one thing that strikes confidence in me about CR, is that fact that they make statements to the effect that they don't want business builders which are solely interested in turning a profit, they want committed individuals who share the same forward thinking and the patients to grow with them.
I have to say for the most part this discussion is informative and I hope that everyone on either side of the fence takes note of the points made and uses this to make the best decision that they can when evaluating CR. Cont... |
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February 19, 2007
At this point it is safe to say that both sides agree that CR has a great concept and IF it's business model comes to reality everyone will be much better off (for the most part) be it that they did go with MLM does breed skepticism from the word go for many people. MLM has allowed many scoundrels to come out from under their rocks and rip people off with false hope however CR seems to have a very conservative startup plan for consumers and Ecoprenuers alike. By not taking money to "sign-up" and not taking money for systems that are not installed they have already gone great lengths to build the trust needed for any start-up company, MLM or not.
For the sake of disclosure I have signed up as a Ecoprenuer because I can see the potential, but this doesn't mean I can say 100% that 1,2,5 or 10 years down the road I will be making money and changing lives with this company. Cont... |
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February 20, 2007
Oh and Terry, don't expect things to change so fast. CR is not even close to making the claims true. They may some day (super) but not this or next year. They will be limited by: the ability of the existing installation companies (labor pool) to absorb the demand, developing service contracts with existing companies to service all these new panels (possible HUGE headache with a new integrated AC panel, may even be a deal breaker), just to name a couple issues. Some of us will work with CR if they survive the year. I personally look forward to it if they can pull it off.
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February 20, 2007
OK that's it. Anyone ever hear of OPPORTUNITY COST. Basic economic concept. It seems the ecoprenuers may not be old enough to have had college econ101. Every second you spend "spreading the word" for no income is costing you time that could be spent doing something else (making money, love, coffee, whatever). That you are willing to give your time (money) for free is your choice, but god lord please stop telling us it hasn't cost a penny. 6000 zealots working how many hours a week costs nothing? I don't think so.
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February 20, 2007
Howdy Folks... I thought Pyramid schemes were something you bought into or had to maintain a certain amount of business with to profit... how can Citizenre be a pyramid scam if not one sole has put one penny in. Also, anywhere I have worked has been the same way and it can look like a pyramid example:
CEO Director Director manager manager manager manager manager worker worker worker worker worker worker worker worker see a similarity? If you work for someone they are profiting from your work... right? Looks pretty much like the same thing to me! |
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February 20, 2007
CR has certainly given the solar industry one big WAKE UP call. Whatever happens with CitizenRE, times they are a changin.... and the current manufacturers and contractors are going to have to learn, adapt, and change if they are going to remain in the business. There's Nanosolar and others who are ready to PRINT miles and miles of solar paneling - at lower cost and faster than ever imagined before. Yes, we consumers are going to wait and see what happens before we invest 30-40K on "new" solar panels... The average consumer doesn't care WHO, or HOW the panels are manufactured or marketed. We want green energy and it looks like we're going to get it in the next few years. Hurray for us all. Meantime you'd better start figuring out what you're going to do instead of going after CitizenRe.
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February 20, 2007
Robert,
I could see all 600 Independent Resellers being held liable here. Your example of Shaklee is unpersuasive, as resellers of nutrition products do not test or validate the claims thereof. Independent financial consultants however, may indeed be held liable, as could individual Insurance agents, and finally, if the complaint is based on the advertising, and the Independents are engaged in advertising, they could be held liable - particularly if they knew or should have known that the claims are false. BTW The claim of customer count are blatantly and obviously false, if as you insist, no money has changed hands. The claims of paying no money is false - if indeed a $500 check is required to consummate the deal. The promises of later repayment will no save you from a misleading complaint as there is a very real difference between 500 in the hand, and $1,000 in the bush. Ben |
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February 20, 2007
(Bear in mind - No one needs to be educated about a clean environment. From John Muir to Al Gore, the importance of the environment is already firmly ensconced at the forefront of the collective mind.)
Finally, Society is entitled to be doubly suspicious of Pyramid schemes, having been more than once burnt. And I would point out that corporate criminals are being sent to prison these days for violating business laws. I recommend caution. Ben |
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February 20, 2007
As Shane said - let's have some answers to the questions - not more rhetoric about how pyramid scheme's are social goods - they can be, but they are better vehicles for scam artists than they are excellent vehicles for responsible businesses. They are also better suited to the selling of commodities - than the selling of services. Equipment installed on a home is not a commodity, rather it involves professionally skilled installation and service. I personally can't remember one Pyramid group which has successfully pushed a professional service. The Franchise model is far more suitable.
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February 20, 2007
Robert, (btw Thanks, Shane)
CitizenRe doesn't have to take a dime from anyone to consummate an illegal futures contract and/or injure legitimate businesses. All it has to do is collect a signature which exposes a "customer" to potential future liability or engage in false advertising which I believe it has already done inre: Customer Count. A price lock-in - such as Citizen is promoting, has only two possible outcomes: 1. A market move in favor of CitizenRE, and 2. a Market move AGAINST CitizenRe. (The third - no change - is historically unprecedented) |
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February 21, 2007
Anyone else think of this?
Rebates etc are intended to finance the growth portion of the Solar Business. In theory, states have a limited budget to spend on encouraging a nascent industry. If CR claims were real, it seems to depend on states having an infinite budget for grant funding. In a very real sense, the Solar industry will have to be nearly fully competitive before anyone comes along and "changes it" a the scale CR proposes. The known facts are all indicators of a pyramid scheme - which defined is a sales model in which a few profit from the buyin of others, bu in the end there is no real product, and most people lose a little money and more of their working years (a finite resource BTW). http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/208387720 Sign the Petition - Spare us a RE Enron Ben |
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February 21, 2007
I also think that in the next few years, PV will be affordable enough so that each of us independent contractors will be able to install some systems at no cost to the homeowner and simply get paid for the power generated from the customers roof top. With the internet and third party financing, this can make sense. Of course, this will happen when rebates are gone, electric costs are double what they are now and PV is installed for under $3/watt - like I said - several years from now.
I do think that the citizenre mailing list that is being built will be valuable to other companies several years from now. |
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February 21, 2007
Hello Everybody:
Solar Thermal on rooftops makes more sence than PV in many cases (I believe the majority of cases). Doing the right thing in the solar industry means providing the best solar solution for the customer and that is not just PV. The CitizenRE approach eliminates a more efficient use of a customers roof top in most cases. I think that we should all try to keep the standards high by supporting our industry leading organizations like SEIA or NABCEP. This will keep our industry whole. Gary Minnick |
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February 22, 2007
Why doesn't CitizenRE go ahead an purchase their modules from SunTech Power instead of manufacturing them here in the U.S.?
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February 22, 2007
Citizenre does appear to be more of a pyramid scheme than anything else. Really, you can't sell a product that does not yet exist, and I feel that established solar energy companies are justified in their concerns about solar power getting a bad reputation.
By the way, as a teacher of science, I believe advances in technology will solve the problems facing cheap supplies of energy today. However, I also think it's unethical to sell a product that science has not yet invented. After reading all of the above comments I would like to voice another opinion. I do not believe that Frank Knight and Jeff Wolf (not Jeff WolfE) are real people. I believe they are pseudonyms created by person or persons unknown who have a vested interest in Citizen. Hey, it's just my opinion, but their dialog and style are transparent. And what an amazing coincidence that there is a Jeff Wolf out there so diametrically opposed to the real Jeff Wolfe. |
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February 22, 2007
As a Pyramid scheme, this is not working out very well: no one pays anything to Citizenre until after the franchise engineer designs a system that is acceptable to the customer and the company. Our current timeline suggests that we will not be collecting any security deposits until early 2008. We are also not eligible for any of the State/Federal tax credits/refunds, since we are not the homeowner, and the homeowner does not own the system.
We have solar-thermal system on our roof, and it is doing a great job at heating our water (63 degreesC in February!). If you are fortunate enough to that you can buy your own system, then do. Most of us cannot, and this is the only opportunity to have renewable electricity. We are only trying to fill an important step in creating renewable electricity by allowing the customer to rent them. |
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February 22, 2007
this might sound strange but a friend of mine was so upset
after a call with a representative that he went looking for the domain name citizenresucks.com... these domains are extremely popular and usually bought by the company themselves but not in this case! Ralph Nadar is even trying to pass legislation to protect the sucks.com sites to keep them away from the corporations... i don't think it will be sucessful but there might be a huge anti citizenre marketing blitz about to begin |
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February 23, 2007
Ben: Your conclusion is not logical? We don't collect any "earnest money."
The security deposit is only collected after the solar engineer has designed the system, the customer has signed off on the design and we have the panels ready to install. By that time, the customer will be able to see our franchise office, see our branded trucks, see pictures of our manufacturing plant....they can even go down to the office and see their panels before they pay the security deposit. By this time we will have invested well over $400 million in putting our model together--hardly a "flash in the pan." If we were collecting deposits ahead of time, I could understand and support your concern...but we aren't. Thanks, Rob |
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February 23, 2007
Yes Jimmy - I did smile. You're a good soul.
For all that, the contract still looks more dangerous than safe, and the idea of finishing your legal mumbo-jumbo before placing the product on a single roof doesn't strike me well. And what is this about a factory before the first roof? Who builds products that way? CR needs to build a proto, and get it under the sun. The available facts point (yes, as my mother old me not to do) they point to a pyramid - lots of earnest money - no product. Sign the Petition to prevent the next Enron Ben |
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February 23, 2007
HOLY COW - that was longer then I though... LOL
take care all I'll check back in a few days Jim "Citizenre Installed - Turning your home into a sun absorbing... place where you live.. type of thing" Okay still needs work I know. |
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February 23, 2007
Look dude, and all the other dudes and duddetts out there - who really knows if CR is this huge scam that has been planned to drain the sun of all it's power and the people of all their money... the answer is only those that would have created such a thing... if you are really that concerned - by all means - just watch.
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February 23, 2007
- the difference between me and you is that when I wrote this I was smiling - you on the other hand were not - I know ...I saw you... yes I did ... yes I did... did... did... okay fine so I didn't but hopefully it did put a little smile on your face - if not ... then you should get
Citizenre installed - it puts a smile on your face... wow this is really going place - thanks Ben. |
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February 23, 2007
The answer to all of these question poins to my conclusion that CitizenRe is either all bluster, or more probably - is an energy futures scam.
Ben You mean to tell me that you already had the answer to all of these and didn't post them... and I've spent 10 minutes writing you back sunofa-gun. I think we may have different answers because I sure didn't point to that - I was pointing waaaaay over here... see - not over there - why are you pointing anyway, didn't your mother tell you it's not nice to point. |
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February 23, 2007
Lastly, the Company reserves the right to deny any sales associate the right to continue representing the Company at any time, if in the opinion of the Company, the Company believes that the sales associate is misrepresenting the Company or is using methods or means of selling to consumers that is not in the best interest of the Company or does not represent the Company in a professional and courteous manner."
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February 23, 2007
" Citizenre adheres to a strict anti-spamming rule. Any associate found to be participating in or conducting spamming activities will immediately be denied the right to further represent the Company, which may or may not be indefinite. Citizenre furthermore frowns upon mass email campaigns, even if such email campaigns are permission-based. Citizenre, also, does not allow telemarketing as a means of generating leads. This is primarily due to the fact that Citizenre Networks is marketing to residential customers, and the rules for telemarketing to residential customers are very certain and restrictive.
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February 23, 2007
6. Why is citizenRe advertising loudly its customer count when it has no customers only leads?
A customer has signed the FRA - Future Rental Agreement - this is the best way to track rate of growth in my opinion if we tracked leads that would be just plan silly - Ben even you could be considered a lead, infact anyone could be considered a lead - so the lead count may just end up being the entire population of the USA, maybe even parts of other countries if they filled in the "become a citizenre lead" check box when arriving to the states for their vacation. You do bring up a good point about advertising loud, but last I checked the best advertising is the type that you see and hear - so I think loud is a great level for any advertising... hear that? However even we can't be too loud... |
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February 23, 2007
5. Why does the "product" work in Seattle (ie States with less sun)
Because the sun still shines in these states - it may not work too well in Alaska though - but I'm not sure that there are plans to expand to this region just yet. ?? Trick question? - Citizenre Installed... dun dun na - |
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February 23, 2007
...None the less - nit-pickyness aside, no one likes a person who is nit-pickey, what a strange word nit-pickey, I'm wondering if I'm spelling this correctly.. hmm oh well
Where was I - yes much has gone into the "Legal" side of the business - and yes even before products and/or services are available to the public. I find this refreshing as many Multi-level marketing companies do just the opposite - too eager to sell a product before they really protect themselves legally, (http://www.delta-sky.com/discussion/forums/000017.html) great little forum topic about lawsuits in America. So to get to the bottom of your question are you asking this because their "EULA" is too through or because your trying to make the statement that we don't have "Citizenre Installed" ... hey it is kind of catchy... so help me Bill if you steal my catch phrase... picked-up by my "lead" Ben - I'll have ta... J/K ;o) I guess you can use it too. |
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February 23, 2007
4. Why does a company spend more time on its EULA than on its product? (Why is the contract finished and ready years before the product is even on a single roof)
Ben I'll bear with you as EULA is probably not the correct terminology for what you are referring to - as EULA or a End User License Agreement is primarily used as a term for a software agreement, i.e. Microsoft Internet Explorer EULA, you know what I mean? Did I bring up Microsoft again... you'd think I really like MS... can't stand their browser - download firefox at www.firefox.com (that's what I use) |
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February 23, 2007
... But your right - if you don't have the info that you need at this point to make a decision about the company - then don't, by all means don't make any decisions until you are absolutely 100% sure that you are or are not ready to participate - it really is easy and I'm truly sorry that I cannot give you the answer you desire - but I'm just Jim.
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February 23, 2007
...absolutely hate for you share a vision with a company or a single person for that matter - I mean if we do stuff like that think of where we would be today if we would have invested with Bill Gates in the early stages... wait I'm sorry that wasn't right... think about if we would have invested in Google, damn did it again.. forget it, my analogies just are not working -you'll have to come up with your own on this one.
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February 23, 2007
3. CitizenRE has not demonstrated the financial liquidity necessary to satisfy its futures contract if energy prices RISE.
You're absolutely right - I'll get that on your desk by Monday. I'm assuming that you do not want a real answer since you are asking on a blog - and to guys named Jim and Bill. You may want to ask the company - and/or wait for the company to go public with all of it's financials before you invest in the business. I would... |
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February 23, 2007
...come to commercialization, the Contracts that we have with solar customers would be affected and are likely to benefit from a decreased Contract Rate. However, we have a social responsibility to tread carefully the commercialization of fusion. The technology combined with fission could be highly detrimental to society at large - there are social, political, and economic issues that must be considered far beyond the thought of cheaper power; and therefore, it is a decision that our board and our officers will treat very carefully.
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February 23, 2007
As a side note - specifically referencing fusion - several scientific advisors to the Company are in fact part of the laboratories working on fusion at M.I.T. They have succeeded at replicating the process, just not on a consistent basis. Their expectations are that it may be possible to replicate the process on a consistent basis within the next ten years. Our relationship with them leads us to believe that we would likely license this technology to bring cheaper power to our Customers. Obviously, if this technology does...
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February 23, 2007
The Customer will be obligated to pay the Contract Rate for the duration of the Agreement. That being said, if the cost of electricity is so much less, then they have the option to weigh the loss incurred by staying in the agreement against the $500 security deposit. Obviously, if it is going to cost more to stay in the contract, then they should just call the Company and terminate the contract. We will come and take the system away and they can then take advantage of the cheaper energy.
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February 23, 2007
2. They also do not indicate where the contract allows customers to drop the agreement should energy prices actually DROP.
Hmmm... well you got me on this - I haven't even seen a contract. All I've got my green little hands on is the FRA... that isn't a contract it is an agreement...I have found a typo on the website FAQ - so maybe it really isn't clear. The FRA is an agreement only not a contract - the contract will be provided only when the customer meets with the engineer and APPROVES the design, at that time a contract will be drawn up, and signed. However to answer your question... ...cont |
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February 23, 2007
It is with good probability that those Customers choosing to sign an FRA early on will in fact be some of the first Customers to receive a REnU on their home. Furthermore, the early signing of an FRA allows the Customer to lock their contracts with the best electrical rates for up to 25 years.
Better? I hope so - that lawyer voice really does a number on my vocal cords. |
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February 23, 2007
For Jim & Bill, ecopreneurs,
1. First your replies do not indicate where there is a single roof with CitizenRe installed. Agreed - did my reply seem like I should indicate where there is a single roof with Citizenre installed? I don't think I even attempted to address this. Looking over the question that is really funny - citizenre installed - like Intel Inside - hey maybe that will be the company's next promo... nah don't like it myself. Uh hum.. excuse me... The Citizenre Corporation anticipates that its manufacturing plant will begin producing panels at the commercial scale by the end of 2007. Upon meeting such a milestone, the Company will begin installing systems on residential customer homes. ...cont (darn 1000 char.. max) |
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February 23, 2007
(purchase modules?)
Christian, CitizenRe has no interest in Solar, they are interested in trading the goodwill built up by lifetimes of other people work, for a flash-in-the-pan Pyramid scheme (My conclusion of available information). Their scheme works best with a product that can't be delivered (until maybe next next year) for a hundred reasons. That buys them the time to collect earnest money. http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/208387720 The Petition Ben |
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February 24, 2007
Rob,
All Talk, no Silicon. 1. Earnest Money is being obviously being spent by recruits in the form of advertising - I know it costs money to advertise on Google for example. 2. More worrysome is the futures contract. There being no proper investments to cover this sort of hedging, it's a devil's bargain. Lose/lose for the customer. There is a proper way to approach a technical challenge - pyramids built on the assumption of a superior outcome by engineers who have failed underperformed their peers is not a plan. Ben |
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February 25, 2007
Ben, call me at 630-553-8697.
You need to move on to something else. You remind me of my son who has Aspergers syndrone who gets obsessed with something and can not let it go. If you were convincing people that CitizenRe is all that you say it is, you would have a lot more people signed up than 15? Ben, Your right about one thing, "CitizenRE is an energy futures" because their system will be providing me (and my neighbors) energy in the future! here comes the "green eggs and spam" "you all know the link"/yorkville |
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February 25, 2007
4. Why does a company spend more time on its EULA than on its product? (Again - because the contract matter - the product - not so much.)
5. Why does the "product" work in States with less sun? (Because an unfunded futures contract works anywhere.) 6. Why is citizenRe advertising loudly its customer count when it has no customers only leads? (Pyramid schemes feed on exaggerated claims of success - see Death of a Salesman) The answer to all of these question points to my conclusion that CitizenRe is either all bluster, or more probably - is an energy futures scam. Ben |
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February 25, 2007
This list of questions was posted earlier.
Rob Styler, and others have since responded to this Board - without addressing them. I list them here again (with my drawn conclusions) "For Jim & Bill, ecopreneurs, 1. First your replies do not indicate where there is a single roof with CitizenRe installed. (The "product IS the contract") 2. They also do not indicate where the contract allows customers to drop the agreement should energy prices actually DROP. (It doesn't - it's an unfunded futures contract) 3. CitizenRE has not demonstrated the financial liquidity necessary to satisfy its futures contract if energy prices RISE. (An unfunded futures contract is a con). |
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February 26, 2007
Ah,
Enter (baseless pseudo-scientific) personal attacks. Let's just focus on answering the legitimate questions. If 15 people reading this forum have agreed that the SEC should look into CR - I'd say that's a pretty good number. Third time listing on unanswered questions: 1. First your replies do not indicate where there is a single roof with CitizenRe installed. (The "product IS the contract") 2. They also do not indicate where the contract allows customers to drop the agreement should energy prices actually DROP. (It doesn't - it's an unfunded futures contract) 3. CitizenRE has not demonstrated the financial liquidity necessary to satisfy its futures contract if energy prices RISE. (An unfunded futures contract is a con). (BTW) Noone is worried about what happens if everything asserted to be true is true. They worry about what happens if its not true. Ben |
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February 27, 2007
PS. Don't bother with the EcoBoulder Link if you expect an unbiased article, it's a spamblog - the author is a CR respammer.
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February 27, 2007
I would like everyone on this blog to read this informative article about the principals involved with CitizenRe. It is called "CitizneRe-Proof by Negation".
Please copy and paste the link below: http://ecoboulder.blogspot.com/2007/02/citizenre-proof-by-negation.html Robert Veach 630-553-8697 |
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February 27, 2007
Hence, I would ask everybody, including some of my fellow associates, to please hold your horses and give Citizenre a few months to prove themselves. With the way things are moving, we associates should be able to give you much more qualified updates soon!
Best regards, Maika Hoffmann |
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February 27, 2007
My bottom line: Citizenre's pilot marketing phase has been... shall we say, "interesting"? Quite an experience at any rate, and I would not have wanted to miss it for the world. Along the way, I believe Citizenre realized that managing us associates turned out to be somewhat more of a challenge than they might have been expecting? They were very generous about letting people sign up, and while I have every reason to believe this was done with the best of intentions, it did not always work out in Citizenre's favor, because some of the sales force became "creative" rather quickly. However, even as an associate, I can see the daily the commitment and effort being put forth into straightening those things out.
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February 27, 2007
As stated above, one of the biggest "if's" I can see is that about doing things right. If I had been working on something for decades and along came someone with a few months of experience and a lot of enthusiasm (which would be an adequate description of myself at this point), I know I'd look at that person from an arm's length! As in: "Prove yourself and your ofering, would you please?"
But personally, besides being able to connect with people from the industry at SDREO, I've also been fortunate enough to talk with a few that have actually joined our network. They can see this working; the one thing that keeps coming up is the "if it's done right" message. |
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February 27, 2007
As mentioned above, personally, I have been a Citizenre associate for about three months. There are many people who have been working diligently for decades on making solar power a more mainstream option. I had the pleasure of meeting a few of them at the San Diego Regional Energy Office (SDREO) about a month ago during a presentation about the California Solar Initiative. There was a varying level of awareness about Citizenre's offering, but every response I got was a positive one. And why not? If this venture is done right, it will give many consumers the option to utilize solar panels who would not otherwise be able to do so. Similarily, I believe there will always be folks who will prefer to buy rather than rent. So as far as I can tell, there is room for both approaches.
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February 27, 2007
To everybody who has contributed to this thread: Thank you very much for your time and input. I posted a couple of weeks ago, and would like to reiterate and augment what I said then:
Having been an associate for almost three months at this point, if I could see Citizenre doing anything better, it is working on clear communication and managing people's expectations. From everything I've seen in recent weeks, their solution is very likely to be what I have come to consider a mid to long term one, meaning customers might see their panels in a year or so at the earliest, and rather likely later than that. It also appears to me that several "traditional" solar installers are concerned about losing their short term customers, who are now faced with another option that is not always being communicated to them along with realistic expectations. |
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February 27, 2007
I understand that good, smart people who have been in the renewable space for years have concerns about whether we can deliver our model. With the limited information we have released, those concerns are understandable.
What is not understandable is the continued rhetoric about people losing hard cash and us just wanting to make a quick profit. I have repeated this several times, but no security deposits are given until we have a 600,000 SF plant with 1,600 workers producing panels and we have franchisees across the country ready to install the panels. I can guarantee that we would not spend the hundreds of millions to create that infrastracture to "scam" some homeowner out of their security deposit. We all want solar power to reach its potential. We have a new model to help make that happen. The rising tide will create many new jobs and opportunities and there is plenty of room for all of us. Thanks, Rob |
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February 27, 2007
Anytime someone buys a solar system they are predicting that energy costs will rise in the future. The difference is that if you purchase a solar system and rates go down, you do not have an option of cancelling the contract.
The scary thing about the web is that anyone can post anything and many people will give it credence because it is in print. Anyone can also post a free petition at the petition site to give their unsubstantiated claim an air of credibility, thin as it may be. |
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February 27, 2007
Ben: I am not an attorney or an insurance agent, but your concerns make no sense?
We are not selling insurance or a "futures contract." We are giving people an option to use green power rather than dirty power and to lock in their rate. Your claim that if rates go up we go bankrupt is illogical. If rates go up, as they consisently do, people are happy with their contracts because they are saving money every month. We know our fixed costs and we know that we can make money at those rates or we would never have entered the contracts. If rates go significantly down (where you claim we will profit--I am not quite sure how) we will actually have more people not happy with their contracts and more will cancel. Our customers can cancel their contracts and lose their security deposit if they choose. The security deposit is between $500 to $1000 depending on the size of the system. We have ancillary markets where we can still earn a profit for that system. |
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March 1, 2007
Dear Mr Gatti,
thank you very much for your reply. May I ask what time horizon you're considering? Solar power is bound to be one of the main energy sources of the future, one way or another. This has nothing to do with Citizenre or any particular provider. Silicon is a vastly available resource. With world demand rising, the industry will respond. I agree it will be the responsibility of us Ecopreneurs to set our customers' expectations realistically. As a matter of fact, I encourage my prospects to buy their own systems if they are in a position to do so within the short term. The sooner anyone switches to solar, the better for all of us. But personally, I believe an approach like Citizenre's holds great possibility for the mid to long term. Best regards, Maika Hoffmann (who is actually female :) ) |
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March 1, 2007
Mr. Hoffmann,
Please read enough about the science and economics of Solar Energy to realize why a "creative" marketing scheme is a non-sequitur. The challenges in solar have nothing to do with marketing. There are two constraints: 1. The availability of silicon or suitable substitute, 2. The relative government subsidies. Today - most silicon is going to Germany because frankly, they have much higher subsidies. In the meantime there is a real question as to whether or not Silicon production can be ramped up to meet the demand t a lower price point. There are many "Thin-film" companies which have started up with bright promises, which really can not deliver a product. IF CR had a product - that would be interesting, but having a PLAN to sell a product, and no product - isn't interesting, isn't new, it's most probably a scam. Ben |
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March 1, 2007
Hence, my suggestion remains - lets give Citizenre a few months to prove themselves, and lets see what they do within these months to address the issues that have arisen thus far.
Sincerely, Maika Hoffmann |
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March 1, 2007
Of course you would be 100% correct in pointing out that this whole operation could have done much differently from the start; a lot of this stir could have been avoided with some distinctive measures. But that was not the case, so here we are today, doing our best to work things out and give life to the amazing potential this idea holds.
Finally, as I stated above, about a month ago, I attended a presentation about the California Solar Initiative at the San Diego Regional Energy Office. Hardly anyone had even heard about Citizenre. Sometimes, being very close to a subject can have a tendency to make it appear ever so slightly larger than it might actually be. As of today, out of the roughly 300,000,000 US citizens, about 9,000 are considering Citizenre's offering right now. If I have done my math correctly, that is 0.00003% of the total US population. Or, in other words, for each person who actually decided to seriously consider this option, there are 300,000 who have not. |
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March 1, 2007
Oops... behold the "beauty" of copy and paste. I apologize for the double post.
=== I can tell that you bring a lot more experience to the table than I do. I look forward to taking the time and look at this thread more closely to become more informed myself. In the meantime though, may I point out that each and every one of us is operating on partial data right now? Only Citizenre senior staff truly knows their plan and how they can see all those pieces fitting together. Given the fact that they are so early in their startup phase, that they have had a much larger response than they probably anticipated, several of us associates have taken it upon ourselves to "self-police" some of our more "creative" members as well. As we are a diverse sales force, working part time, perhaps the fact that we choose to spend some of our time that way tells you a bit about us. |
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March 1, 2007
Dear Mr Gatti,
I just looked at your most recent post. I must admit I have not yet taken the time to read through this entire thread, and so am unaware of some of the past conversation that has transpired. Just looking at what you wrote today though, I can tell that you are honestly concerned about the reputation of solar industry in general. Having personally reached out to numerous of my fellow associates, having a solar installer in my own network, I would like you to know the care and commitment many of us bring to this endeavor. Has it been a learning experience for each and every one of us? Definitely. Have we always been able to communicate correct information? No. Can I assure you that many of us are diligently working on righting those wrongs and representing Citizenre's offering truthfully and professionally? Absolutely. |
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March 1, 2007
Jerry,
I fully accept and join you in hoping that "mass market solar is coming". But that day will come on account of a "product", it will not come on account of an elaborate pyramid scheme. My view is that the real risks of another "Enron" outweigh the potential benefits provided by a "creative" and irresponsible business model. To your question - if CR is a successful will I continue to deny the possibility? I don't "deny" the possibilities now, but sound judgement requires calculating probabilities, and as I said earlier, the probabilities of real damage to the solar market outweigh the probabilities of CR contributing to the "Problem" - firstly because R mis-states the problem. They view the problem as ownership, citing rental as the solution. The problem is not ownership, it's system cost, and the two are in no way connected. There are plenty of lenders providing financial services, there is a dearth only of silicon. Ben |
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March 1, 2007
To Ben (cont.)
Making it not want to happen, won't make it so. Would it not make sense to be ready with a bak up plan to get involved just in case this one takes off and remains viable (whether its CR or another its going to happen)? Can you not deny the possibility of the program being very successful? In closing Ben, mass market solar is coming. The academy awards program only re-affirmed that alternative energy options are the future and will be the demand. Are you going to put your efforts to obstruct? or to inspire others? or continue to deny the possibility? Look at the history of other industries. |
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March 1, 2007
Hello Ben,
I see that you are still here with your bright and shiny disposition. Have you signed up to become an ecoproneur yet? What will you say if the CR model is in full effect this time next year? Will you continue to deny its potential success? Will you be like the doubters from other industries who said that you can't give away what we have been charging thousands of dollars for years? Will you then state it can't last? I have told you this before..look at the satelite, alarm, cell phone and other industries that found it is better to lower margins and increase volume. I f you fail to learn from this you to will be scratching your head wondering what happened to an industry that you built only to lose to the mass marketers. |
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March 2, 2007
http://www.prometheus.org/research/polysilicon2006
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March 2, 2007
I saw the hard copy of the Prometheus report on silicon, but I cannot find it on their website...sorry...I was going to provide the link.
Thanks, Rob |
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March 2, 2007
Mr. Gatti: Please read the report done by the Prometheus Institute about solar. Like any product that is in low supply and high demand, the market is responding. There is plenty of sand it the world. The problem was that the solar industry was so small that it did not inspire capital investments and we were left with the scraps from the computer industry. That is all changing now.
Thanks, Rob |
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March 2, 2007
I hope this will take away any concerns. We are now actively directing customers to our fellow solar professionals. Whether people get solar from us or from someone else, the important thing is that they take action. We are opening up the solar market to many people who were never customers before. This is a good thing.
To verify this, you can go to www.jointhesolution.com/join and click on the "reserve" button. Thanks, Rob |
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March 2, 2007
To help you identify a more accurate timeframe, we are developing a computer model that will inform you of a more precise date for your site survey. It will be based on when you reserved your system and your franchise region. As a last note of assurance, your security deposit will not be asked of you until the engineer has conducted the site visit and you have approved of the system design.
So with that said, registering is a very simple process. There are two short pages; and once you have finished filling out the information and submitting it, you are one step away from joining the solution. I want to thank you for joining the solution and switching to solar. I will be in touch with you promptly to walk you through the last step. If you have any questions, you can contact me directly at |
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March 2, 2007
Our solution will open up the market to many people who do not want or do not have the ability to pay the large upfront investment for solar power. If you have the financial wherewithal to buy a PV system today, we urge you to do it. Our environment and economy needs you to do this as soon as you can. Here is a link to find a certified installer closest to you www.findsolar.com.
If you prefer to wait for our solution, please fill out this form. One of our solar engineers will visit your home and design your personal system. Nevertheless, the solar engineer will not visit your home until they have your panels ready to install; for those registering early on, this will likely not occur until the beginning of 2008 and later for those that register later. |
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March 2, 2007
We know that some of you are concerned that Citizenre could hurt the existing solar industry as people wait for our solution. The concern seems to be that we are not being accurate in our marketing and we are "misleading" customers.
To make sure that there cannot possible be any confusion, we have posted this message on our site. When someone clicks to "reserve their system," this is the first message they see: Excellent! Citizenrē is very excited to see that you have taken the initiative to self register. Before you continue on, we want to take a moment to explain to you that our unique solution is creating a lot of excitement around solar. We want to make very clear that our plant has not been built yet. There could be delays. The last thing we would want is for you to wait if you can "join the solution" now. Whether you get your system from us or from another solar professional, as soon as you install solar on your home you are making a difference. |
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March 3, 2007
The solar industry is actually on a huge upswing and I think that is part of the concern. People who have been dedicated for years finally are seeing results and they are concerned that Citizenre could somehow hurt this trend. This is understandable and we will prove ourselves to be a responsible and productive member of the solar community.
Thanks, Rob |
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March 3, 2007
Thanks for that information, Rob. I did not see that yet. I recently had a conversation with:
Steve Spence Dir., Green Trust http://www.green-trust.org Here is part of my response (Robert Veach): The solar market is totally unsuccessful up to this point. It has barely touched the market at less than .3%. CitizneRe is where Lucent was 27 years ago when I worked there. The company Motorola was trying to convince Lucent that selling a cell phone at $988.00 was not going to work. We(myself and 100+ Lucent employeees)fought them for 3 years until we realized (just as all the solar franchises have to) that Lucent's business model was not working. Look today and see how many free $350.00 phones you can get. |
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March 4, 2007
Dear Mr. Gatti,
please believe me: I know exactly how you feel. Warm regards, Maika Hoffmann |
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March 4, 2007
Ben:
Please understand that just because we have not shared this information with the public does not mean it does not exist. Everything has its time and its season. We will release this information at the right moment...the news will be much bigger than what you might expect. Thanks, Rob |
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March 4, 2007
BTW - is there any installation company out there that wants to sell me enough shares to be injured by CitizenRE?
The Sherman / Clayton Act says something about selling a product (or advertising it) for less than cost ... Ben |
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March 4, 2007
Rob,
Before thy sell the first condo - they have the land under contract, the plans approved, the zoning approved, and a reputable builder actively engaged in the project. Where is the land contract for your plant? Where is the builder for your plant? Where is the zoning approved for your plant? Where .. etc etc etc ... There is a reason ALL of these things are missing. Ben |
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March 4, 2007
There are numerous examples behind the wisdom of creating your market before completing your product. We communicate clearly with our customers so they know that our plant is not built and that they will be waiting a long time for their system.
I will never claim we are perfect, but I think even you have to admit that we take corrective action when necessary. We will continue to adapt, improve, and move forward. Thanks, Rob |
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March 4, 2007
Ben:
Putting marketing in front of manufacturing is not only ethical, it is intelligent. It is not for a lack of resources, technology or talent that the solar industry has not reached its potential...it is for a lack of a product that the average customer could embrace. When our plant is fully operational, we are going to need to offtake enough panels for 10,000 homes am month. When they build a new condo project, they do not wait till the building is complete before they start marketing those units? In fact, they collect thousands in earnest money for people to reserve a condo that does not exist, often they have not even broken ground...often the whole complex is sold out before construction even starts. |
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March 4, 2007
After rereading my post one more time, I realized I should have given this section its own paragraph:
"And now, as Mr. Styler stated above, we will be referring people who are considering buying their panels within the short term to go to findsolar.com. As a matter of fact, I did that for one of my propects yesterday. If you would rather like to hear this from the lady herself instead of me, please contact me, and with her consent, I will provide you with her phone number." I am very happy and proud to see that Citizenre chose to post the message about findsolar.com on their website. As previously mentioned, I believe the sooner anyone switches to solar, the better for all of us. So, thank you for allowing me to clarify. Maika Hoffmann |
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March 4, 2007
Instead, they did something pretty uncool (pardon my youth) as far as I was concerned: They pretty much pulled the rug out from underneath us (again, that is the way I personally felt), left us looking fairly silly (again, my reaction) when the plant date was pushed back as well, and as far as I remember, did not even really give us an alternate date as to when the press release would be coming. And now, as Mr. Styler stated above, we will be referring people who are considering buying their panels within the short term to go to findsolar.com. As a matter of fact, I did that for one of my propects yesterday. If you would rather like to hear this from the lady herself instead of me, please contact me, and with her consent, I will provide you with her phone number.
Best regards, and again, thank you very much for taking the time to reply to this issue. Maika Hoffmann |
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March 4, 2007
Finally, I also agree with you that raising false hopes is one of the most damaging things we can do to each others' trust. From what I understand, it is also one of the quickest ways to demotivate people. Now, with all due respect to Citizenre, I must admit when the press release that was scheduled for the end of January was pushed back without warning, it had quite an impact on myself, and probably many other associates as well. However, I believe this scenario also raises an important point: If they were really out to scam folks, I have every reason to believe they would want to keep us riled up, to keep promoting their scam, to hire folks left, right, and center so it can be done even more effectively. In order to do so, I also believe they would fabricate whatever information they could come up with to keep us believing as long as possible.
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March 4, 2007
As I also stated above, some of us have taken it upon ourselves to use part of our part-time liason with Citizenre to self-police our network. Hence, personally I gladly accept your offer to help find questionable material. What we usually do in those cases is contact the indiviual and ask them politely to remove it. A lot of the times that is all it takes. If it is not too much trouble to you, may I ask whether you might be willing to do the same? If so, please feel free to refer them to myself, Maika Hoffmann, if they feel they are in the right and you are not. Also feel free to email me at m.hoffmann (at) rethinksolar.net if they are giving you grief. I will do my best to address your concerns in a timely manner, but would like to reiterate that I am an independent associate for Citizenre, on a part-time basis.
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March 4, 2007
And as it appears that both Mr. Styler and myself independently reached the conclusion that making our side of the story heard in this thread might be useful, feel free to ask him if he has any particular name reserved for me in the privacy of his own mind if he sees me asking about an ETA on our new training one more time ;) .
Another issue I would like to raise is that of us being a huge scam. Lets face it, as of now, becoming a Citizenre independent associate not that much harder than getting a Yahoo(R) id. I would like to clarify that I am using Yahoo(R) as an example for purely semantic reasons only: As English is not my first language, and looking at some of the more "exuberant" advertising, I found myself reaching for the dictionary to confirm that my personal definition of "yahoo" was correct... |
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March 4, 2007
Dear Mr Gatti,
thank you very much for your reply. Personally, I agree with you; this endeavor needs to be done RIGHT. A (as far as I know) unique feature in our back offices are our forums. Personally, I have found them to be one of the most constructive tools in this entire venture, and have been utilizing them frequently. The more we question this idea, the more chances we get to find the right answers. Having a background in IT, I am intimately familiar with the "Garbage in, garbage out" concept. Thankfully, there is at least one corollary to it as well though: "Quality in, quality out". I take this to mean, if we ask good quality questions, we should get good quality answers. Based upon that conclusion, I know I have been "asking away" whenever I had trouble understanding something. |
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March 4, 2007
Rob, and others ...
For me, your promises o be a responsible and productive contributor ring hollow, as CR has already demonstrated a willingness to put marketing waaaay ahead of production. This is irresponsible in my view, and I think, already damaging to the market. False and misleading advertising is unlawful precisely because it injures fair-playing members of an economy. We will be watching for any additional evidence of false advertising, and I will advocate and support holding individuals, including celebrities, directly responsible for damages should they occur. Ben |
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March 5, 2007
I don't think you will get funding. Here is why. As an investor, I would not fund a manufacturer of silicon wafer based solar collectors, since the amount of energy to produce a kilowatt of silicon solar cells is thirty times greater than the amount of energy to produce a kilowatt of thin-film solar cells. This represents a lot of wasted money and energy at time when we don't have a lot of either to waste.
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March 5, 2007
Rob...Ben is not the only one who is concerned about the real damage your MLM is doing to solar installers trying to make a living. (i.e. loss of customers due to deceptive advertising from a competitor with promises of a product currently priced below the cost of production, but with no actual product to deliver.) Ben is doing an excellent job of expressing the matter. Many others are watching this debate very closely. In my opinion, CitizenRE has an obligation to address the real damage done by immediately disclosing the real status of CitizenRE with factually verifiable statements. If funding, land, and plant construction are all still under negotiation, (meaning you have none), then you should so inform your potential customers and associates.
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March 5, 2007
Ben...I am going to stop posting here because you seem to be the only one who is having a challenge with the fact that we will not be releasing that info until our press release.
Any time you are collecting money (ie a deposit for a condo) there are strict regulations and guidelines. We are not collecting any money and we have every right to release our information on our time schedule, not yours. All of your questions will be answered soon. Thanks, Rob |
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March 5, 2007
No commitment in that.
Again - back to your comparison of selling Condo's before they are built - Condo builders have secured the land before they start selling - CR is selling product before they even have a land contract for the factory. Where is the land for the factory? Where is the approved plan for the factory? These questions remains unanswered. Ben Ben |
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March 5, 2007
Ben:
As I have shared, all of the information will be released in our press conference. The news will be bigger than what you might expect. Thanks, Rob |
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March 5, 2007
Rob,
Are you saying CitizenRE ACTUALLY has land under contract for a plant - and you just aren't saying so - or that IF you had land, you might not disclose it? Which is it? Commit right here to having a land contract. ...... Ben |
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March 5, 2007
Hence, I want to sincerely apologize for my impulsiveness. I have learned my lesson: From now on, I will wait at least 15 minutes before responding to anything I read.
Thank you very much for giving me the chance to explain myself, and again, please forgive me. I'm still learning. Best regards, Maika Hoffmann |
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March 5, 2007
It appears I very much need to qualify the statement I made above.
It illustrates another important lesson: When I wrote those few lines, I was speaking entirely from the heart, responding to Mr. Gatti's latest post, in which he asked about the details of Where, When, How, etc. That was all I was responding to - that feeling of "void", that feeling of "I so wish I knew those pieces of information as well". Because even as an associate, I would LOVE to have the answers to those questions so very much. It was out of that impulse I posted those few lines. But what I totally lost sight of is the many different ways they could be interpreted, the many different ways people might hear my voice in their head when they read them. |
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March 6, 2007
Ah yes,
Every Religion has a Blacklist. Now Rob is threatening to declare a Fatwa on all the "infidels" - or "unbelievers". (The Parallels between Pyramids schemes and Religions are legion) Good Grief ... Imagine that - Global Warming solved - and no Peer reviewed paper, no lifelong dedication and sacrifice, no errors in execution - just a coupla mystic self-proclaimed water-walkers - and alakazam - Free Solar. Yep - that's gunna happen. Hold yer breadth everyone, Rob has now calculated the precise location of the last remaining golden ticket. Ben |
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March 6, 2007
We have answers to all of your questions and your wait will soon be over. I hope they keep these posts up. It will be fun to have a public record of all of the people who said we could not deliver.
Thanks, Rob |
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March 6, 2007
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March 6, 2007
Rob,
You're not going to Post because 1. Your Lawyer told you to stop ... (he's got a point) 2. You have no answers to the basic three questions: a. Do you HAVE the investments - or are you trying to manufacture a reality by deceptive advertisement? b. Do you have even approved plans, and a contract for a plant location? c. Can your customers REASONABLE expect CitizenRE to deliver the product which they are reserving? The answer to all three is no. Also - it is not a requirement to TAKE MONEY to be charged for deceptive advertising - it is only a requirement that others are injured. We have seen many claims of injury due to deceptive advertising. Ben |
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March 7, 2007
After that last comment from, Ben...I am done with this blog :)
Thanks, Rob |
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March 7, 2007
THIS WHOLE BLOG IS GETTING REAL REDUNDANT NOW, PLEASE LETS ALL STOP AT THIS POINT, I AM SURE WE ALL HAVE BETTER THINGS TO DO.
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March 7, 2007
Rob,
Religions keep track of "unbelievers". You used the phrase "It will be fun to have a public record of all of the people who said we could not deliver." Part of the social pressure which underlies blind adherence to the assertions of those who deny their adherents tangible evidence of their assertions is the threat of excommunication or "blacklisting". "Death to infidels" is a caricature; but every Religion, and now CR, keeps lists of people who lose the faith. Ben |
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March 7, 2007
Ben, I hope you are joking...but it is hard to tell with you.
I get motivated by people who say something cannot be done. Where did the whole religion thing come from? Nevermind...I don't want to get in a debate about this. I know that there has been a vacuum of information and that has created concerns. We will let our press-release and the facts speak for us. Thanks, Rob |
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March 8, 2007
Folks,
Rob Styles has left the building ... Did he confirm or deny the questions presented by the article? He did not. 1. Does CR have the 600 Million they claim? - Robs' answer: - No comment 2. Does CR have a contract for land and approved plans to build a factory - again no comment. 3. Does CR have even one installed example of a working Solar System? - no comment from Rob. 4. What does Rob say? He is making a list and checking it twice - you had better believe in CR or you will be "listed". Please my fellow colleagues - be prepared for what looks like a scam, talks like a scam, and is priced like a scam - to be one. Ben |
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March 9, 2007
(Correction)
Good businesses understate their expectations, then deliver more than they promise. CR is claiming the moon, and has delivered zippo. |
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March 9, 2007
I'd like to add that the Enron folks didn't /set out/ to create a scam.
Instead they engaged in shady business pratices (which they thought were pure genius), and the scam materialized on its own. Small lies led to big lies etc ... CitizenRE is headed in the same direction. The lies are small initially (and closely aligned with what people "want to hear"), while its leaders are self-proclaimed visionaries. This is the pattern of successful religions and catastrophically unsuccessful businesses. God businesses understate their expectations, and then delivery more than they promise. CR is claiming the moon, and has delivered zippo. Ben |
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March 24, 2007
Whether you choose to buy or to rent, as soon as you install solar you are making a difference in meeting the environmental and economic challenges facing the nation and the Earth."
Mr. Gatti, I will be just as curious as you to find out how we are all being scammed. Best regards, Maika Hoffmann |
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March 24, 2007
Well, Mr. Styler might have "left the building", but
https://www.citizenre.net/extranet/index.php?mod=web&task=registercustomer Still states: "[...] When you prefer to buy a system today using your own financing rather than waiting to rent a system with Citizenre's forward rental agreement, there are two ways to find an installer near you: First, visit www.nabcep.org. This site lists installers certified by the North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP). When Citizenre begins its own installations, we will use NABCEP-certified installers. We recommend that you do the same. However, if your area has no NABCEP-certified installers, consult www.findsolar.com for an experienced "solar professional" near you. Urge them to get their NABCEP certification. Doing so will ensure that they too can participate in the explosive growth ahead for the PV industry. |
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April 1, 2007
From the Article:
"Gregg said that a press release with the names of team leaders, investors and the plant location will be available in March. That information was supposed to be available in January, but the month passed with no word from Citizenre." Now March has passed, and I don't see the announcement. See a pattern here anyone? Benjamin |
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April 4, 2007
House of cards or not, Citizenrē has sure pressed a lot of buttons. I've just passed the test and become a cog in the premotion in hopes that at the industry ( and I'm including everyone involved in the renewable / clean energy business ) will rise and shine.
It's mostly because I'm passionate and committed to reducing my negative impact on the environment, and am excited about the posibilities here. Could Powur of Citizenrē become the VolksWagen of the PV sectior? Is it a viable plan? Will the Manufacturing facility be built and resources be available to make this real? Is there anyone else out there with a similar vision to make comparatively clean renewable electricity available to people who otherwise would not consider it for financial reasons? |
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April 8, 2007
Lawrence,
Sure, there are plenty of /Technically Oriented/ companies out there with the vision of solving the engineering problems which raise the cost of renewable energy. Bear in mind that Tax payers have been funding nuclear energy and dirty energy for 70 years, and it may take a similarly funded engineering effort to bring renewable energies down to the same price. It is highly doubtful that a pretty website of borrowed images, with a celebrity and his "so simple anyone can understand it" wife are enough to solve the problem. Ben |
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April 10, 2007
Dear Interested,
You have landed nicely on the key sticking point. CitizenRe is led by one quite possibly genuine environmental activist, but includes this Styler feller, whose background would appear to be limited to sleazy pyramid schemes. What strikes me is that the legal contract is completely finished before the blueprints are even begun. But more precisely, as you point out, it's a one-sided-contract. If energy prices go DOWN, it appears CitizenRe can enforce the "price guarantee" provision - meaning you pay the difference to CitizenRE. The chances of energy prices going down? Actually very high. We have an energy war under way, with hard plans to end it. The end of oil conflicts usually lowers the price of oil. Ben |
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April 10, 2007
I've followed the various discussions with great interest. I considered signing up for Renu back in January, but did not do so because of the Forward Rental Agreement. To me, it appears that their FRA obligates the renter to obtain service (par. 7; signature page) after the site visit while releasing Citizenre from obligation to provide service at their discretion (par. 2.6).
I have not seen this issue addressed by any of the comments, but it is a huge one. Even though Citizenre doesn't charge money upfront, they do seem to require a contractual commitment upfront w/o guaranteed product in place. As noted elsewhere, it is like buying a condo before it's built -- except in this case, the builder has never built a project before, and the renter is apparently required to make a commitment sight unseen. Anyone from Citizenre care to respond? Also, why has the Citizenre web site had no press releases since 2/12/07? Not hard to understand how this would add to the skepticism... |
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April 12, 2007
Mr. Gatti, I'm a former Citizenre sales associate. I terminated last month, as Citizenre is no longer a good fit for me.
David Gregg, CEO, began a bold, important mission. Residential solar electricity is NOT COST-EFFECTIVE. Citizenre is attempting an innovative solution; converting up-front cost to affordable monthly (rental) electricity payments over the system life. It's a complex multi-facted project, not every aspect is predictable, or on-time. Your statement; "You have landed nicely on the key sticking point" shows me you've NOT done your research. Your remark; "this Styler feller, whose background would appear to be limited to sleazy pyramid schemes" demeans YOU Mr Gatti, and eclipses any credibility you had! Actually, I have issues with Mr. Rob Styler but your tirade is inappropriate. State the FACTS you deem pertinent re. Mr. Styler. Your snide innuendo IS "sleazy." Please, respect those working at something WORTHWHILE! |
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April 13, 2007
Additionally, there is only so much oil in this world. This begs the question of how long such rate decreases would last. And why use such a limited resource for energy generation when much cleaner alternatives are available? Also, may I respectfully point out that this thread is taking place on a RENEWABLE Energy Access forum?
Finally, regarding missed deadlines: I agree, this is rather "uncool" (pardon my youth, yet again :) ). However, it also goes to show that if this was about hype only, that's the last thing they'd want to "further the cause." As far as I'm concerned, I really hope Citizenre staff will start giving themselves more generous grace periods when they set their dates. Best regards, Maika Hoffmann, San Diego, CA http://renu.citizenre.com/lightyearsahead |
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April 13, 2007
(iv) all licenses, permits, and permissions are obtained;
(v) Customer makes Contract Address accessible for the construction of the REnU; and (vi) the Customer, again, is present and makes their self available for the final inspection and commissioning of the REnU. Also, you would not be buying anything without seeing it first. The site assessment would only take place after a NABCEP certified francisee has panels available for you. Concerning rates: If Citizenre's prices increase above other available options, all you stand to lose your security deposit. Given that the current system size cap is 10 kW, that's $1,000 at most. This could lead one to argue: "So what if they put the panels on the roof and then immediately increase the rates?" Well, please pause and reflect on this for a moment. For one thing, there are much, much easier ways to make money. |
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April 13, 2007
Good morning everybody,
happy Friday, and thank you very much for your contributions. Gordon, it is a pleasure seeing you here. I still look forward to speaking with you on the phone one day :) . Mr. Gatti: Citizenre is not Rob Styler's project. It is Citizenre CEO's David Gregg's. Mr. Styler is VP of Sales for the residential market sales force only. To Interested: I can only speak for myself as an Independent Citizenre Associate. As such, I would like to direct your attention to section 2.1 of the FRA's terms & conditions, which lists all the provisions that need to be in place before a system can be installed: (i) Customer is present and makes their self available for the initial site review; (ii) the REnU Contract Address meets all suitability requirements to substantiate good performance conditions for the REnU; (iii) Customer approves of the engineering design of the REnU; |
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April 19, 2007
Even once someone pays the security deposit, they can decide to "opt out" and all they would lose is their security deposit of between $500 to $1000, depending on the size of their system.
So, if energy prices should drop dramatically, as Mr. Gatti states so confidently (though historically it has never trended upward) the customer could evalaute if it was better for them to cancel their contract and lose their security deposit or to continue with their contract. Thanks, Rob |
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April 19, 2007
Dear Interested:
The Consumer can back out of the Forward Rental Agreement at any time before they sign off on the design and we engineer their system. This is a contract and we want to make sure we can provide our solution to as many people as possible, so if someone changes their mind for no reason, we may choose to refuse them service in the future if they later decide to sign another contract, but they would not lose any money. To get to the point of the solar engineer visiting the consumer's home, we have to investing considerable company time and resources. If someone then just "changes their mind," we wasted time that could have been better served helping others. |
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April 22, 2007
Dear Interested et al.
May I point out that CitizenRE can cite chapter and verse on the contract, but can't tell you where the blue wire connects to the Red wire. Red flag #1: Priorities in the wrong place - they ought to be demonstrating a better mousetrap, instead they are spending money on contract way too long for anyone to read. For Gordon Re: "Prior experience with sleazy pyramid schemes" - Just Five words sir; Google, rob, styler, pyramid, scheme,. Those are facts enough. Ben |
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April 23, 2007
Mr Gatti,
Thank you for your guidance on Google-search, though I have no intention of miandering through the internet to justify YOUR allegations against Mr Styler. YOU made the public allegation, YOU provide specific facts to substantiate it!. Otherwise Mr. Gatti, it seems to me, your credibility is as much in the balance as you claim Mr. Styler's to be. Gordon Orme. |
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April 24, 2007
For Gordon -
Dear God, must a body spell it out letter by letter? Read just the first 4 Google Entries. The upshot is Styler's experience is with Equinox, an Amway copy-cat that sells snake-oil* commodities sucker-to-sucker; which Mr. Styler ADMITTED in a book to be a sleazy pyramid scheme. (a snake oil commodity is generally a consumable which makes unproven (and often unprovable) claims on the label - always highly subjective. think Ionic Breeze, let's you breathe easier, male enhancements, non-allergenic soaps etc etc.) Ben |
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April 30, 2007
Most people do network marketing part-time. They make a little extra each month--others lose money because they treat it like a hobby rather than a business.. I agree that there are challenges with network marketing and many companies have abused the industry. We have no sign up fee, no monthly fee--people are simply paid when they help a customer upgrade their home to solar.
Have you even watched the explanation I do about all this and how and why we are different? Just go to www.powur.com and click "Why we are different." I specifically mention how those practices lack integrity. Rob |
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April 30, 2007
Rob,
Pyramid marketing makes most of that $100 Billion by misleading domestic homemakers into the belief that they can make more money than their honestly employed significant others "in just a few hours a week". The human spirit is intractably drawn, like moths to fire, to stories of glorious wealth earned without proportional effort - and I wager that you personally told stories of people who had "made thousands a month" doing basically nothing. As for renewable energy, there is no need to sell it - the public are already sold. There is only a need to innovate economically competitive technology. Why do you continue to promise an announcement before it is final - is it not to encourage the hopeful hordes to keep the faith? Ben |
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April 30, 2007
Ben:
If you are going to criticize me, at least get your facts straight. Equinox actually made some rather good products. Their water filter was later ranked as a "best buy" by Consumer Reports and had the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval. I worked with them straight out of the Peace Corps and when I reached the higher levels of the organization, I saw things behind the scenes that I did not feel were ethical, so I left. I took a stand for what I believed in and walked away from a lot of money. This is all explained on the flash on the front of our marketing site www.powur.com. Just click on "Why we are different." To imply that all network marketing companies are "sleazy pyramids" is ignorant and irresponsible. The industry has some great people and great products and it generates over $100 billion a year in sales annually. It also happens to be the best way to bring renewable energy to the masses. Thanks, Rob |
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May 7, 2007
I would hope EnronRE is different than competing RE because of it's technology, rather than being different from Amway because of its "incentivisation" structure. The RE industry doesn't need a better Mary-Kay, it needs a better mouse trap, preferably one that converts naturally occurring energy into useful work.
Ben |
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May 10, 2007
Ben,
with gentle amusement, I can't help but notice that you seem to want Citizenre to deliver upon its promises at least as much as we associates do. Best regards, Maika Hoffmann |
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May 16, 2007
Benjamin continued this pattern of very disruptive editing, even after he was well aware of Wikipedia's policies and their applications. Here he has begun using in-line links to references, but instead of characterizing them as the opinion of those groups, he simply states those opinions as fact. [6], [7], [8]. In response to admonishments on this point, Benjamin here makes it clear that he views his purpose as above such suggestions "i am not bound by courtesy, wikicourtesy or otherwise".
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May 16, 2007
Is this you-Ben Gatti?
I first encountered Benjamin Gatti when I responded to an RFC filed on the article Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act. I quickly realized that Benjamin edited from a strong anti-nuclear/pro-renewable energy viewpoint. [2] [3] [4] This would not be a problem, except that Benjamin was not properly sourcing contributions, and often inserted essay-like, blatantly biased opinion as fact. I chalked this up to inexperience and tried to show him Wikipedia's policies, taking pains to demonstrate how to properly source criticisms, and how to attribute assertions of opinion to groups. (Which he responded in one instance by suggesting I was trying to censor him [5]). While Benjamin has been most disruptive for the longest period of time on energy-related articles, he has made disruptive edits across numerous unrelated articles. |
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May 16, 2007
Five words:
Where is the press release? |
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May 16, 2007
Hi Ben;
I would love to know what you do for a living? Are you a writer, engineer, scientist? Let us all know. |
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May 16, 2007
Maika,
What I and others want and expect is for the Renewable Energy field to remain a fair market for the best products, and not a playground for scam artists. If CitizenRE has a good product, it should be obvious and apparent - it is not. Instead, what is apparent is a lengthy legal contract, and scam-bait price, and an executive history with self-admitted scams - of the pyramid scheme variety. Ben |
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May 17, 2007
Ben,
would you please elaborate on your scam-bait price reference? Also, Citizenre is a corporation. Their residential market sales force (formerly "Citizenre NetWorks", now "Powur of Citizenre") is currently structured as a network marketing organization. Which, as has been mentioned before, is not collecting money from anyone, because - as you correctly pointed out - they currently don't have a product. In many cases, it has helped open people's eyes to the very real potential of solar though. Finally, as I've offered before, if you come across anyone or anything that strikes you as contrary to what I just said, please feel free to send it my way to m.hoffmann (at) rethinksolar.net Maika |
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May 18, 2007
Robert Veach is using RenewableEnergyAccess to Spam for CitizenRE, according to other writers:
See: http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=47541 Robert, your credibility would improve if you could address the substance of the topic article rather than attacking other writers for unrelated reasons, and using REA topics to Shell for Scams, All the best, Ben |
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May 18, 2007
Maika,
Scam-Bait Price means substantially less than the costs of manufactor and installation - ie "Free" or something close to it. Robert, You're attacking the messenger - I am hardly the only person here with the same opinion. I write software if it matters, and if you have any problems with Wikipedia, you should take it up with them, as this is hardly the place. My novel contribution to this topic is the assertion that CitizenRE is engaged in futures trading and insurance against energy price hikes, but that these risks are not financially backed, and that this could lead to a black eye for the Industry. Ben |
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May 23, 2007
Ben,
thank you for clarifying what you meant by "scam-bait price." Now, may I ask you to comment on how and why you perceive Citizenre's activities as "futures trading?" Thank you very much, Maika |
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May 24, 2007
Maika,
The quintessential value proposition of CR appears to be that the customer will "Never pay a higher price for energy" - That the price will be "locked - in" and insured therefore against future increases in energy prices. That product - or garentee - is exactly what "futures traders" deal in. hedging against future changes in fungible commidities is the purpose and substance of the future's market. Futures trades are important as they allow contractors to agree to a price for a house - without knowing the future price of lumber, a volatile fungible commodity. But CR doesn't have the liquity to provide price insurance. Ben |
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June 4, 2007
Ben, thank you for the clarification. Your point is well taken, but as far as I can tell, one actually needs to provide a contract for trading futures. However, Citizenre's FRA is not a contract; it simply does not meet the criteria that would make it one. You also raised other good points in the past, such as the world wide silicon shortage, the fact that Citizenre has yet to present a product, and that false representation of their idea might hurt the solar industry as a whole. Only time will tell what will actually happen. However, regarding the "threat" to the solar industry: I have been interacting with several of the larger installers in Southern California, and none of them has shown the least concern. Instead, they appear quite content expanding their businesses and spending their time filling existing orders. Maika |
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June 20, 2007
No one in the Electricity market was worried about Enron either until after. Then it seemed everyone should have realized what was happening - the signs were everywhere - masked by irrational exuberance.
The toll for a large fiasco is increased regulation. Already, the competitiveness of US companies is in jeopardy because of post-Enron regulations.
I suggest it is naive to sit idlely by and hope that CR is not what it appears to be. Ben |
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June 25, 2007
Maiks, I'd like to point out his CitizenRE ad:
apparently CitizenRE is activily DISCOURAGING people from purchasing Solar power systems.
Here is a google ad: Perhaps you would be willing to qualify your previous asertions?
Benjamin Gatti
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July 1, 2007
Gentlemen/Ladies: Here is your CitizenRe product CHEAP and poised for mass production: http://www.aboutmyplanet.com/alternative-energy/large-scale-cheap-solar-electricity Thank God that this company was smart enough to raise $100mln in venture capital.... Have a green day!
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July 7, 2007
Ben: The ad you quote can be read with emphasis on the "don't" or the "buy", and doing so creates different meanings. Personally, I tend to agree with you; it could be helpful to make it less ambiguous. However, as it largely depends on one's interpretation, I believe the intent is to create curiosity in whoever reads it without any prior knowledge of the option of renting solar panels. Secondly, please let me know which particular assertions you would like me to qualify. When doing so, please keep in mind that as an independent contractor, I cannot speak for Citizenre, and it is entirely up to them if they want to heed anything I say. Steve: I am very curious to see Citizenre's progress over the next few weeks and months as well. If this sounds like a repetition of past statements of mine: I am well aware of that. Best regards, Maika |
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August 19, 2007
For those of you with any real interest in Citizenre please direct your browser to the corp site and the current press release. http://www.citizenre.com/web/index.php?p=press_releases David Miller |
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September 6, 2007
While it appears that there are some serious flaws to citizenre, there business model is not unique. There is a successful solar company in new jersey that provides similar services to the commercial sector (stores with flat roofs like whole foods). For those of us with modest means, installing a PV system is simply not economically feasible with today's current technology. I might add that the suggestion for getting a home loan to install a system is not something every homeowner can do. We are already an overleveraged society with to much debt, using our houses like ATMS. What we need is a solar solution for the masses. If someone could take the idea of renting out PV units and maybe charging a little bit more for service than standard utility rates I know I and everyone I know would sign up. It's to bad that right now the only real way to be green and reduce significant personal carbon emissions (and I'm sorry but, changing all your lightbulbs is not going to cut it) is to be rich. |
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November 17, 2007
M. Hoffman,
The Ad isn't ambiguous. It says "Do not buy Solar", the entire argument of CitizenRE is don't buy Solar, wait until we come and give it to you for free, only it isn't free, it comes at the cost of purchasing electrical insurance from an unfunded insurance company. Best Regards, Benjamin |
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November 30, 2007
To reinforce the point made by binita bhattacharya's (Sept 17), the business model of selling "solar as a service" is not new or unique. I'm not familiar with the NJ company using this model, but Sunedison (Beltsville MD) claims to have 17MW of PPA installations, mostly in CA and NJ.
CitizenRE seems to be trying to piggyback on this sucess, since they include PR about Sunedison jobs on their website. However, CitizenRE is selling vaporware at this point. The next few months should reveal whether it's the real deal, an MLM scam, or some other diversion. Either way, the company is not "highly unique amidst the RE landscape". Perhaps the most useful service it's performing now is to highlight (via the website map) the absence of net metering in several states. |
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May 13, 2008
Has it been the next few months yet - ?
Anyone? |
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