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February 15, 2007

Special Report: A Look at Citizenre

In this week's program, Stephen Lacey examines the debate over Citizenre. The company's business model and claims have sparked a lot of controversy in the solar industry over the last couple of months, and we'll have a look at why the company has been exposed to so much criticism.

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Reader Comments (132)
 
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February 15, 2007
"...it's still something that should be explored!!!!" Exactly, patrick partridge.

It IS something to be explored, but it's not something to be rushed ahead of its time, not to mention hyped by hucksters, naive and well-meaning though may be, to well-intioned people like yourself.
Comment 1 of 132
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February 15, 2007
I may have over estimated the profit to the solar industry. But this is a great idea. Even though the profit is'nt much it's still something that should be explored!!!!
Comment 2 of 132
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February 15, 2007
I may have over estimated the profit to the solar industry. But this is a great idea. Even though the profit is'nt much it's still something that should be explored!!!!
Comment 3 of 132
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February 15, 2007
they told NOAH that he was cazy!!!! they said you could'nt fly to the moon!!! they also told Sam Walton his business model would'nt work!!1 HAHAHAHAHA That's what the old walmart beleivers are saying now how do you think google started?Or "napster" David Gregg is a visionary and if you are too blind to see then go sit and watch your beta max tapes and be quiet. Because this does not cost any major $$$$ and these solar guys should be offering Mr.Gregg their so called expertise in this field!!!! I am a PROUD ecoprenuer and if these so called solar experts were so damn smart then why have'nt done this yet? I know the $40,000 of which more than half is there profit!!!! they don't want everbody to have SOLAR but David Gregg sayes it's possible and I beleive him over blowhards!!!!
Comment 4 of 132
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February 15, 2007
And I'll bet Sharp is embarrassed to find its good name associated in any way with this sad story. Mr. Priest, I believe you and your fellow ecopreneurs are going to be feeling quite foolish in the near future. You might want to rethink your position sooner than later.
Comment 5 of 132
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February 15, 2007
Howdy Laszlo. I speak my true feelings... am I supposed to sway? That will not happen... my heart and soul are in this.... expect nothing less from me! We are making it easy for folks to upgrade to solar... plain and simple. We are going to make a difference... watch us!
Comment 6 of 132
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February 15, 2007
I think it's interesting that the Lead Sponsor of this site and of the podcast is Sharp. Sharp is the #1 solar cell manufacturer in the world. Hmmm....
Comment 7 of 132
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February 15, 2007
I found this on GrassRootsModern.com. Does it sound just a little familiar ? LOL

http://forum.grassrootsmodern.com/discussion/81/affordable-solar-power/#Item_0

Frank Knight wrote this there, the same as here in the "Citizenre: A House of Cards?" thread, almost word for word.

http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=47419

I guess this is a CR standard mode of operation to quite skeptics.
Comment 8 of 132
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February 15, 2007
Aside from all the hype, will Citizenre be liable for damage to roofs? What happens when someone sells a home or moves? Will Citizenre be liable for damages if the entire system gets blown away in a hurricane? What if the company goes out of business before the contracts are fulfilled?

My point is, there are many scenarios in which this outfit could become entangled and who will be responsible in unforseen circumstances?
Comment 9 of 132
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February 15, 2007
(cont) I expect there has been a little too much hype in the beginning, because everyone involved is so excited about the possibility of finally being able to power this country quickly through solar. I do not have the technical background to know whether this is feasible, but I hope it is, and figure it won't hurt to believe!
Comment 10 of 132
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February 15, 2007
From what I understand, the so-called "Leaked Internal Strategy Discussion" was prepared by Richard George, who is NOT on the staff of Citizenre, and therefore NOT "internal", and was "leaked" by himself.

I have also been lead to believe that he may have been the source of some of the misleading ads, although that has not been confirmed.

Please remember that this is a start-up, that some information must be kept confidential in the beginning, and that "Ecopreneurs" and the customers who have signed up are not losing any money on this.

The change in dates appears to be because of an attractive offer to build the production facility in another location than originally planned, which naturally has slowed down the initial plans.
Comment 11 of 132
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February 15, 2007
John,

If you are selling solar in California you better get up to speed and start reading the CSI Handbook. It's 95 pages of fun filled hoops that you got to jump through every time. Actually, the Handbook just tells you what the hoops are and then sends you off to find them.

Good Luck
Comment 12 of 132
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February 15, 2007
Also, since Citizenre owns the panels they might be able to find another customer within the local area to take the system anyway, assuming the requirements are as you have posted them here.
Comment 13 of 132
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February 15, 2007
I am an independent associate of Citizenre. I have a BA in physics, have previous experience building my own electric car, and I look forward to receiving the additional training that Citizenre is promissing. If it is required that the panels stay on the house for 10 years, then this could void any 1 or 5 year contracts in CA. Still, there is a clause in the 6 page terms and conditions that basicly says that if the customer is adversely affected by the terms of the contract then the contract can be voided without loss of the security deposit. Having to have the Citizenre installed panels stay on the house for 10 years would be no different than the same situation if the person had purchased the system. They would still have to find a buyer for their house that wanted solar if they decide to sell within 10 years. Citizenre allows transfering the contract to the new owner.
Comment 14 of 132
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February 15, 2007
(Cont.)
There is no factory, no installers, and yet they are putting out six page contracts as if they were a going concern. Their address is basically a mail drop in Delaware, not headquarters for a corporation with 650 million dollars in investor funds.

They are collecting names, and in some cases Social Security numbers, and it seems there is a religious fervor involved that requires blind faith. Blind faith and good business do not go together.

Mark Frye: Thanks J. I had not considered the imprecations of the permanency clause since CR says they will move the system once for free.
Comment 15 of 132
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February 15, 2007
(cont.)
What does Rob know about solar manufacturing and installation. Rob Wills former inverter company went bankrupt leaving a number of installers holding warranties on bad inverters which cost them time and money. Gregg is twenty-five, no college, no seeming previous experience in the solar industry. In fact, there is no one among the principals with ANY technical solar experience, and yet their Ecopreneurs are saying to potential customers, "Don't invest in solar now, we'll deliver Free Solar to you come September." There is no free lunch. A customer will continue to pay for energy forever. There is also a panel permanency clause in the California Solar Initiative Handbook. No moving of panels for ten years except for basically "Acts of God" or totally unforeseen emergency circumstances and then with 60 days notification and re-installation within the same utility territory within six months.
Comment 16 of 132
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February 15, 2007
J McLean wrote on Brad Ideas:
"If you read about LifeWave, and Rob's 20,000,000 million a year sales projections on this transdermal energy patch, you will find similarities in his marketing techniques with CitizenRe. Lots of faith and very little questioning. Rob had a spiritual experience on the top of a mountain in South America after the Federal Government shut down the MLM company Equinox where he was a top ranking participant. (cont.)
Comment 17 of 132
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February 15, 2007
4) the franchises will only be making money on labor, since the company model is to provide their own panels and inverters. This leaves very thin profits for anyone looking into buying a $75,000 CR installation franchise.
5) I predict, if CR really does pull through on the back side ($$$), the implementation side will capsize them quickly. CR is going to come to those of us already installing systems to see if we want to buy in. We will say no because the thin profits. CR will have to find and train a new solar company (not feasible) or pack up and leave town, leaving unknown numbers of unhappy people.
Comment 18 of 132
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February 15, 2007
cont. 1) the extremely uneducated sales force will have "sold" a large percentage of jobs in impossible situations. 2) The learning curve for installing quality pv systems in long. 3) The labor pool available for new "franchises" is currently tied up with real companies doing real installaions. I can hardly hire people fast enough to accomodate our growth. If CR wants to move into my town, they will have to compete with other reputable companies for labor. cont
Comment 19 of 132
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February 15, 2007
If an ecoprenuer "sells" 1000 systems in my area, who is actually going to install them. The "franchise" model is flawed. As an operations manager of a large PV installation company, I know the incredible amount of support it takes to run a successful, efficienct solar company in todays business climate. The CR franchise will have troubles on multiple fronts. cont
Comment 20 of 132
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February 15, 2007
One thing that I have found to be ironical:

We went through a couple years where all the PV modules where going to markets outside the US. PV installers and customer really had to struggle with supply issues and multiple month delays in being able to get the product.

Now modules are become much more available as other markets slow down. Prices are falling slightly and there is plenty of product to do install now. This is making for some health competition in the marketplace.

In comes CitizenRe saying - Just wait a year or two and you can get solar for nothing -

But that is irony, you don't know whether to laugh of cry.

I would like to thank Jeff wolfe and Dr. Richard George for working so hard to get the information out.

I don't believe for a minute that CitizenRe has the funding or the ability to deliver what they offering.

Be sure to check out the Renewable Energy Access thread on this topic:

http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=47419
Comment 21 of 132
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February 16, 2007
Question for James Smith. What do you mean "your property taxes would cover these so called rebates"? and who is waiting for a rebate?
Comment 22 of 132
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February 16, 2007
If I was interested in buying a franchise, where would I find labor (engineering, design, installation) people experienced in the current rebate paperwork nightmare. Who would train these people? A successful solar company doesn't just happen, it takes years. CR is making promises that cannot be met. That is our main beef. Tell us the truth, not BS hype. Your enthusiasm is golden. I am right there with you all in the dream. You need to realize that CR is hurting the industry with lies. The end is noble but the means are adolescent.
Comment 23 of 132
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February 16, 2007
Oh, I have searched the sight thouroughly. I think the idea is great. The model that is being proposed simply won't work. Even if the money works out and the timing works out (both of which are uncertanties) the implementation is very questionable. Correct me if I am wrong (with facts please), but an installation franchise costs $75,000. The only people available to fill the necessary positions would have to come from the existing labor pool associated with solar today. Who would be willing to spend that kind of money for jobs that pay less than the existing industry standards. cont.
Comment 24 of 132
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February 16, 2007
Everyone needs to know that Richard George was TERMINATED from Citizenre. Everything he states is due to remorse. He had his chance and now regrets his actions. Enough said.

Can we all just get along...were all here for the same reason, to make a better environment for our children and their children. We do need to cut down on the coal firing plants ect...

Give them a chance, you never know you might like it.

Peace!
Comment 25 of 132
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February 16, 2007
A Jarvis
Only 8 states don't have net metering. Most companies are coming on-line. What you need to do...research the new energy bill that's being passed in congress as we speak! I bet you don't own a home because if you did...you would realize that your property taxes would probably cover these so called rebates. The City and State couldn't afford it, neither could the average home owner. You go ahead and spend $30K-40K on a whole house system, waiting for a rebate. I'll go with citizenre and with $40K make a million $ by the time you break even on your system. Don't forget utilities purchase wholesale.

You know not so long ago IBM and skeptics said the same about Steve Jobs and Bill Gates introducing PC's to the home market in the 70's. How do you like your Ipod? :)
Comment 26 of 132
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February 16, 2007
John Thielking
I contacted several insurance companies and found...
Allstate, State Farm, Farmers will cover the panels under your existing home owners policy. It was explained to me once its attached to your home it kinda becomes part of your home (something to that affect). My insurance guy advised me there would be no raise to my existing policy.

Bryan Shull
you really need to check out the citizenre website...most of everyone's questions here are answered. Search the site and you will find answers.
Comment 27 of 132
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February 16, 2007
Anyone, Bueller, Bueller, Bueller
Comment 28 of 132
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February 16, 2007
Hey John, what engineers are you talking about? Where do you think they are going to come from? Nobody has yet addressed MY question, who is going to install these systems? You ecoprenuers are out "selling", but no very little about how it really works, and it is important that you know how it works. It is not enough to be enthusiastic about it.
Comment 29 of 132
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February 16, 2007
I have been an independent seller for the company for a little over two months now, and admire their vision and courage. If there is one thing I could see them do way better, it is looking after their internal communication (making sure everybody is on the same page), and managing expectations - both their associates' and their customers'.

M Hoffmann, San Diego, CA
Comment 30 of 132
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February 16, 2007
The one show stopper in the CSI handbook might be that both the system owner and the host customer have to provide proof of insurance, in order for the system owner to receive incentives. Last I heard, there was a big "does not compute" issue over how to get a homeowner to add the system onto their homeowner's insurance when they don't own the system. They are working on having a supplemental insurance program for customers who are affected by this.
Comment 31 of 132
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February 16, 2007
Mark Frye,

I just now read the CSI handbook (the Dec 19, 2006 online version) and it did not raise very many red flags at all. Most of the incentive details will be taken care of by the engineer who designs the system for the customer, not by me. It is not clear if Citizenre will be able to install systems where a municipal utility is involved, such as Sacramento, if they don't have net metering. This question should be answered if you look on the jointhesolution website and find which utilities are going to work with Citizenre. They also claim they don't need incentives to get their financials to work.
Comment 32 of 132
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February 16, 2007
This statement that David Gregg quoted could not be any clearer. I have been looking closely at this company for months now and have registered to represent them. I have 28 years engineering experience and have always wanted a solar system on my home. My conclusion about this company is that they are legitimate and I am willing (and so are my customers) to wait for this young company to follow through on all of their promises. I can give you an honest assessment of this company. Please join in-become a customer or an associate on my team! I promise to make you successful at promoting this great "green" technology. I live in Yorkville IL and I am committed to converting all the roofs in my town from "black tar to blue polycrystalline"! Coming to a roof near you, CitizenRE!
www.powur.com/yorkville
www.jointhesolution.com/yorkville
Comment 33 of 132
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February 16, 2007
I explore some of the technical issues with Citizenre's plan that haven't been explored in detail to date, on my blog.

greenvolts.blogspot.com

Hope you find it infomative
Comment 34 of 132
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February 16, 2007
I dont "blog so I dont know if the artical that started this is limited to 200 comments or not. Anyway, what does the industry that stand to lose so much on this saysing? I.E., the railroads for example stand to lose greatly on the very profitable coal haulage agreements. The power generation manufacturers like GE. Last but not least the power generation companys themselves. Are they just sitting there and saying "lets see". I cant believe if this was a threat to them they would take this sitting down. There position on this alone has some merit I believe.
Comment 35 of 132
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February 16, 2007
This is an interesting concept that could work.
But it comes down to renting versus owning.
There is no equity in your property if you sign up.
If you do not have a utility w/net metering, and there are plenty still, this will not work.
I think it is kind of a pyramid deal to boot, which bothers me a bit.
The idea is great. Without a doubt...
I think that the state and local governments could basically do the same thing by offering incentives to homeowners and business' for implementing solar electric.
Comment 36 of 132
February 16, 2007
I want my Free lunch!!!
I don't know how to make,deliver or design sandwiches,but Gimme my free lunch!!!!
This whole model does a disservice to those who have actually studied,worked and invested in the growth of a healthy sustainable energies industry.
It encourages false expectations of unrealistic returns,at the expense of dissillusioned people who were hoping to "do some good".I would love to offer a "cheap energy solution" to people,but I would have to offer a realistic option,and right now that means a capital investment in your property-plain and simple.

Let the shrill braying defending an unworkable plan begin!Gentlemen(and ladies)Start your spin engines!!!
Comment 37 of 132
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February 16, 2007
I recently became an Ecopreneur/Associate in Citizenre at the same time I signed an FRA as a customer. I've been researching Citizenre trying to come to a decision as to how I should proceed.

As a registered mechanical engineer, I've spent my career developing an approach to problem-solving based on facts and science. A belief in Citizenre requires almost a suspension of this tried-an-true method of dealing with technological challenges. There are instances and anticdotes that make it sound almost like a religious cult at times.

Because of the near lack of financial risk I have decided to wait out the storm clouds and give Citizenre a chance to prove that it is working toward the betterment of the solar industry. I hope my wait will not be in vein.
Comment 38 of 132
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February 17, 2007
But first, they have to stop making unreasonable claims. I cannot associate with a company that breaks promises and cooks books. Get a better filter in place for the ecoprenuers, better training, more knowledge of the industry BEFORE they go out and "sell" or offer or whatever. More honesty from headquarters, etc... there is room for us all, lets see where it goes.
Comment 39 of 132
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February 17, 2007
Thank you Bill. You need to be promoted. You get it. If CR can offer the existing labor pool (my company) a decent price and no HUGE headaches, I will work with them.
Comment 40 of 132
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February 17, 2007
Our contracts do not obligate anyone until an engineer presents them with a proposal and they approve it. Only then do they give their $500 deposit. So if they don't want to wait, they are not obligated to do so. I will delete them from my customer list and we are done. Watch the old movie, "Other People's Money" with Danny DeVito. Good example or parallel to what we are going through in the solar industry and Citizenre. Check it out. Sorry for the long comment, but at least my spelling and grammar are mostly correct.
Comment 41 of 132
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February 17, 2007
Granted that with your traditional purchase based sale your profit is much greater. And you will still have customers who prefer purchase to rental, and all commercial sales. Citizenre installs will be just a new/additional source of income. Let's just say for the hell of it that on a $4ok system you now profit, say, $15k. Maybe that's too low/high, not important, it's just an example. How many systems of that size have you sold each year? (MMMMM how many systems sold to date?divided by 30 years). Now multiply how many installs your skilled and knowledgable staff can implement per month, even if it took a whole day to complete one system. One crew can do about 20 per month times 12 months is about 240 systems per year per crew. Multiply that number by how much Citizenre will pay per system installed.
Comment 42 of 132
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February 17, 2007
The point is well taken regarding who will be the labor force, engisneers, etc. It would be foolish to recreate the wheel. The aspect of the program that appeals to me is that it intends to be inclusive of the well established solar companies that have paved the way for Citizenre's new plan. It sounds like Citizenre would rather include your companies as allies, ready to supply you with work orders that historically have been absent from your arena. Realistically, the majority of customers that we are registering are homeowners who either cannot afford the initial investment for PV, or have gotten estimates and prefer to spend that money elsewhere. Perhaps a peaceful compromise can be reached between Citizenre and the available workforce that can make it profitable for all parties to participate in this project.
Comment 43 of 132
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February 17, 2007
I am a Citizenre associate, not employee. First point, I do not sell solar systems. I only register potential customers. I say potential because I am not an engineer qualified to design a system for someones home. None of us associates are. I never tell a customer, even when asked, what size system they will get. Therefore, the idea that there would be a conflict between what I sell and what the engineer designs is a misinformed and incorrect assessment by someone who has not, in fact, researched the website.
Comment 44 of 132
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February 17, 2007
On top of the $75,000, Joe Blow has to lease an warehouse ($20k+/yr) and know how to manage inventory (employee #1 30k+/yr), he has to buy work vehicles ($50-$100k), he has to higher an experienced design engineer (65k), he needs office support to process rebates, accounts rec, etc..(30+k), 1 certified journeyman electrician per crew (50k) and laborers (2 @ 30k/yr each). Do you see the point, this is not an easy or cheap endeavor. It takes guts, knowledge and $$$$$$.
Comment 45 of 132
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February 17, 2007
We have a big mission ahead of us. We have alot to live up to. There are solar companies out there getting calls from customers who want to cancel with them because they hear about our offer. Jeff Wolfe has a valid point that if we do not deliver that we could hurt the industry, thats a valid point. Give us a chance to deliver and then if we don't then you can say you were right! I actually hope you decide to join us, most of you out there actually will. Together we can all make a difference.
Comment 46 of 132
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February 17, 2007
Mark, you speak the truth and can't be heard by most.
Comment 47 of 132
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February 17, 2007
James, I got my information from an upline in So Cal named Todd Strand. According to him, CR will sell franchise rights for the installation side of the business. So Joe Blow can buy the right to engineer, design, install, and maintain the systems "sold" in a given area. That's what I mean by franchise. Yes I am in the industry, No I do not feel threatened, there is room in solar for many players and business models. There will always be people who want to own there system. My main point still being the labor pool for QUALIFIED installations is thinning rapidly.
Comment 48 of 132
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February 17, 2007
Mark,

We are "making" this happen. Just because you have no idea who is behind us doesn't mean they aren't there. I can say with absolute confidence that we will have 100,000 customers sooner than you think possible. It's a shame you have to put down people who are interested in finding a better way to adopt pv.
Comment 49 of 132
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February 17, 2007
Allen,

As far as I can tell, you guys are not "making" anything. No financing, no manufacturing, no engineers, no installers, nothing.

A lot of people are upset because you have nothing but you are selling it as something.

Can you really even say you have 7,000 customers? What you've got is 7,000 people lining up to see if they can get something for nothing.
Comment 50 of 132
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February 17, 2007
It's human nature to put up defense when a threat is on the rise, no one can argue with that. I have talked with many folks in the industry this past week and they are giving me comments like "finally we can make solar mainstream" and "we have been waiting for this". However, these are not CEO's of other solar outfits, they are installers and designers, or someone who was referred by someone currently in the industry. We broke 7,000 customers in just about 5 months. On avereage with the business as usual approach that would have taken 7 years. So you can see why we are causing tension. We are creating an entirely different market where virtually ANYONE can go solar. Alot of people may be upset that they didn't come up with this brilliant idea. We are making history!
Comment 51 of 132
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February 17, 2007
Sorry,
John I meant James.

(And I thought designing and installing PV was tricky!)
Comment 52 of 132
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February 17, 2007
As time goes on, with lots of Eco's selling systems into sites without any pre-engineering, CR will accumulate more and more loss. The people that you are being asked to sell to now may get something, but not necessarily the people who come after that. At some point the folks at the top will have to cut their loses, leaving the folks at the bottom holding the bag. And some of those folks might just be some of your friends and family.

Good Luck and let us know what you find out about third party insurance for homeowners.
Comment 53 of 132
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February 17, 2007
2) Site Specific Design Factor

If there is shading on the site, the rebate will be reduced. More importantly, the energy yield of the site is dramatically reduce by shading and siting factors. From what I understand you feel these concerns are for the 'engineer" who comes after you.

So you are free to sell (or rent) as much solar to a customer as you want. But the viability of the company is based on getting revenue from that customer based on how much energy the system makes. For any given site, the installation cost is fixed (at whatever cheap price your think CR can achieve). But because of site factors such as shading, the actual rebate and yield from that site could vary widely. So what happens when the engineer comes along behind you and figures out that the system you sold won't produce enough energy to pay for itself? Downsize the system or take the lose?
(cont.)
Comment 54 of 132
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February 17, 2007
With regard to the CSI, I think you should consider it more carefully.

1) Maximum system size: CSI limits system size based on historic usage. Thanks to Richard George we understand that CitizenRe customers are signing up for significantly larger systems than expected. From what I hear you say, as the sales person, you don't really have to worry about that but what happens if you over sell the system size. Will the CitizenRe "engineer" just tell the customer,"Sorry, we signed an agreement for one size but we will only deliver a smaller size." Or will CitizenRe go ahead and install the promised system size and take the lose on the rebate revenue?
(cont.)
Comment 55 of 132
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February 17, 2007
John,

My response here is now neither an attempt to argue my position regarding CitizenRe, nor an attempt to show you up. My intent is to help Ecopreneurs learn something of what I have learned about designing and installing PV. I think once you know more about the reality of PV, you will see that CitizenRe is nothing more than fantasy.

1) Thanks for getting on the phone to the insurance companies. Are you sure you asked the right question? The question is not can a homeowner add the PV system to their existing policy (the answer is yes) but rather can they add an additionally insured third party such as CitizenRe to that policy. Like many things, it is relatively common for businesses to do, but not so common with home insurance. What if it can be done but it increases the premium? You can check it out and let us know.
(cont.)
Comment 56 of 132
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February 17, 2007
$75K for a installation franchise...where do you get this info? It's $75K for one share of one franchise. A franchise will cost millions. As for the work force, they will probably come from sub-contracts, a trained work force, or something to that effect, I admit, I don't know for sure. What do you think...this company started a couple of months ago. Do you really think citizenre would give up that type of information to the public right now? They have to protect the investors interest. It's a privately owned company. Are you crazy! Have a good time on your phishing trip. :) Like any other corporation would give up trade secrets when they have a new revolutionary manufacturing process, product, or design. You need to keep it real. You all will see. This guy probably works for a company who feels threatened or they wouldn't be pushing this BS. Sharp! Honestly they should worry. And if the system in place is so great then why is there less than 1% with solar? Profit Margin!!!
Comment 57 of 132
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February 18, 2007
Respectfully Bill, I don't have time to work my up the food chain, tracking down information to help CR evolve. I want to deal with owners/directors and I want them to contact me. How can we make this happen? I am an operations manager for the largest PV installation company in CA, possibly the US. As far as commercial gigs go, bring it on.
Comment 58 of 132
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February 18, 2007
On the contrary, I would suggest to you just the opposite to you. The policy as it stands with Citizenre is that we associates can only register residential customers. The franchises, namely (potentially) you, are the only ones responsible for all commercial purchases. What this means is that the franchises with have a sales force all accross this country finding commercial accounts which the franchises do not have to pay for. We may get a finders fee for the commercial referral, but the sale will be handed over to the more qualified companies like you. How much do you think that will help your income? What would you have to pay for advertising like this? Could you even afford a direct sales force like this? My suggestion to any potential/actual franchisee to develop relationships with any associates in their areas. Just a few thoughts.
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February 18, 2007
Hey Bryan, glad to hear your request. I don't guarantee anything but I can get you started. What I am about to offer to you will have no strings attached. I think the first step answering your questions is to go to my website powur.com/northerncalifornia. Register as an associate. No No No. I am not trying to get you to be an associate. It would just be alot easier to get you in touch with the right info and personel to get your questions answered. Before you talk to the higher ups like Allen Priest and David Gregg you should probably get an idea of what we are offering to our customers and associates. IF I were in your position I would want as much info as possible before such a meeting were to take place. Chance favors the prepared mind. I do not expect anything from you in regard to being an associate, its merely to grant you access to pertinent info.
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February 18, 2007
In CA, energy efficiency is part of the rebate program. This year is a simple web energy audit, but in the very near future, rebates will be contingent upon implementing some energy efficiency measures. Hey Bill, I would love to talk with the higher ups in CR about the implementation of their plan and how we in the industry can paricipate. Can you or anyone else facilitate a phone call or something? TO add to Mark's comment, it takes two hours (including local drive)just to visit the site and determine feasibilty of solar, then more hours to design properly.
Comment 61 of 132
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February 18, 2007
We are not selling Amway, we are saving the planet one home at a time. We better know what we are talking about. Citizenre has been very clear about this point from the beginning. We must represent with professionalism, integrity, humility, and honesty.
Comment 62 of 132
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February 18, 2007
What I would like to see happen in addition to what is being done is education of our customers on ways that they can conserve energy now, while they are waiting for their systems to be installed. I read someone's comment suggestion that "the only way to stop global warming is to conserve." He further gave a comparison to the kwh savings of solar vs. the savings derived from converting a household over to efficient lightbulbs. The savings he suggested were much greater according to his model. While I do not agree that it is the only way to save the planet, it should certainly be included into Citizenre's customer education program. Oh, of course, our associates should be required to be fully trained about this as well. If we, as reps, want to reap the rewards that this industry and company offer, then we should invest our time and our minds to learn our industry.
Comment 63 of 132
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February 18, 2007
Lets all make a difference on the environment here in the U.S. for the future.I have been looking closely at a company (CitizenRe)for months now and have registered to represent them. I have 28 years engineering experience and have always wanted a solar system on my home. My conclusion about this company is that they are legitimate and I am willing (and so are my customers) to wait for this young company to follow through on all of their promises. I can give you an honest assessment of this company. Please join in-become a customer or an associate on my team! I promise to make you successful at promoting this great "green" technology. I live in Yorkville IL and I am committed to converting all the roofs in my town from "black tar to blue polycrystalline"! Coming to a roof near you, CitizenRE!
www.powur.com/yorkville
www.jointhesolution.com/yorkville
Comment 64 of 132
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February 18, 2007
Regarding the issue of meeting deadlines I would like to say, What's new? Everyone who has every built a house knows that there inherent delays in every project. Rarely does a house get built on schedule without glitches, you know, Murphy's Law.lol. I say so what. We as a people have been aware of solar power for how many years? There are currently how many solar power systems installed to date? Why? Because money has gotten in the way of doing what is right! So what's new! Everyone has to feed their families, that's a fact. So, I say that even if it takes two or three years to develop a way to provide this kind of program to the masses, and not just to the wealthy, so be it. I truly beleive that if we took a poll of the 7,000 plus registered customers of Citizenre and asked them their opinion, Would it be worth waiting for? Their response would be yes.
Comment 65 of 132
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February 18, 2007
Oliver,

Like many CitizenRe claims, this is a half truth enthusiastically wrapped in a blanket of ignorance.

It is possible to do the preliminary "design" of a PV system in a couple of hours. This would be the easy access, single story with wide open roof plane, no shading and good quality accommodating electrical equipment.

But throw in multiple stories, poor access, disjointed roof plans, multiple roof plane orientations, shading and poor quality or unaccommodating electrical equipment and you have a much more challenging problem.

Stick with your professional design/installers, get multiple bids and ask for references.
Comment 66 of 132
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February 18, 2007
Thank you Bryan for your response. I am so glad that my words contributed to the opening of cooperative dialogue between our two components of the holy trinity of business; The company, the labor force, and the customer. All three of these components must experience success for the business to succeed. I beleive at this point a healthy dialogue between Citizenre and the labor force is appropriate. You, Bryan, are in the trenches everyday, and have been for a number of years. Your expertise is a valuable assett to the company. If Citizenre has a flaw in their approach to installation/implimentation, then bring that to the discussion along with possible solutions. Let's all keep working TOGETHER from a solution oriented perspective and success will be enjoyed by all who participate.
Comment 67 of 132
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February 18, 2007
As a home owner, I was told by a CitizenRE associate that her training manual said that the engineer could design the system in two hours using a laptop computer and a cad program at my home. Is that possible? I had a local solar company come by and the process took a couple days before I saw the design, talk about permits etc.
Comment 68 of 132
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February 18, 2007
Bill is definitely a leader among our Ecopreneurs. I am excited to inform all of you that we will have a much better training structure in place very soon. I agree with you 100% Bryan, we do have plenty of room for everyone. We all want the same thing in the end which is a nation and ultimately a world that does not have to depend on depleting fuels. A world that we can feel good about leaving to our children. There is nothing I want more than to be able to say I helped make this planet a better place for my children. That is worth more than all of the money in the world to me.
Comment 69 of 132
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February 19, 2007
As someone who was intially excited about the business model of Citizenre, then suspcious, then hopeful, then leary and now am hopeful once again, I want this to work. I would like to make several statements
1. Our current federal government is doing nothing to combat climate change and wean us from non-renewables.
2. Solar PV is out of reach of the average American. A $40,000 system at 3% over 20 years adds $222.72 dollars to a families monthly budget. I do not believe that citizenre is "pulling" customers away from tradional PV in that most of these families could never have afforded PV in the first place.
3. Its time to shake things up and think "outside the box". If Citizenre succeeds then great if it fails then we can try something else. I would rather try something new and fail than to never try at all.
So to the naysayers, sit by and wait. To the people who have the courage to push the envelope. Great and I wish you the best.
Comment 70 of 132
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February 19, 2007
Dr. Rob Wills gave a thorough response. It is too long to post here. We will have a link up soon.

Thanks,

Rob
Comment 71 of 132
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February 19, 2007
Rob,

I don't think that you responded to Mr. Wolfe's questions in any meaningful way.
Comment 72 of 132
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February 19, 2007
Why do authors on this site keep promoting this "report" as a "leaked internal strategy discussion" (see the top of this page) when it well known that this was simply one person who expressed their concerns in a PDF document.

This is a smart man who made an impressive looking "report," but there was no "internal discussion" with corporate. This was not leaked, but rather aggressively posted all over the web.

We have no problem dealing with the facts, but let's be honest about this "report."

When you say "leaked internal memo" it suggests that we were trying to hide something. There has been a lot of innuendos and muddying of the water.

We understand that many of you have valid concerns of how we will pull off our business model. The answers will become clear as we release more information...but until that time, let's be fair.

Thanks,

Rob
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February 19, 2007
We will have a conference call with Dr. Rob Wills on Wed night to answer any technical questions. Feel free to listen in. Many of the questions posted here will be answered. Wed Feb 21 at 6pm Pacific:

DIAL-IN NUMBER : 319-279-1001

PIN 1025747 #

Thanks,

Rob
Comment 74 of 132
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February 19, 2007
We have open forums in our back office where anyone can ask any question. We have 3 conference calls every day where anyone can ask any question. I did a special conference calls for the RSD's where they could ask any question or bring up any concern. You listened but remained silent? It seems extremely disingenous to me to claim that we would not answer your questions when you never asked them.

You created your "report" to look like an "internal memo" by using our logos. If you would have shared that report with us and then we did not respond, I could understand you spreading it all over the web out of frustration. But to do that before you shared it with us is questionable.

We will respond to all of your concerns, just like we did to Mr. Wolfe's.

Our model will make more sense as we share more information. We all have the same goals. The more we can work together, the faster we can bring solar power to the masses.
Comment 75 of 132
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February 19, 2007
Richard, please be fair. I called you three times personally and you chose to never return my call. You sent that "report" out before you showed it to anyone in corporate. As you well know, you were not terminated because you wrote that report--you were terminated because you became openly hostile to our business and proactively contacted people who were part of our company to spread your negative opinion.

You have every right to your opinion--and we have every right not to work with you. I do not know any organization that would continue to work with someone whose stated goal was to "expose them as a scam." Scream your opinion for all to hear, but we are not going to let you remain in our locker room, be part of our team, and enjoy in our success.

Btw, there have not been two people terminated. You are the only one with that honor. We would have been happy to answer your questions if you only would have brought them to our attention.
Comment 76 of 132
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February 19, 2007
Richard,
Perhaps your feeling got hurt because you were an executive director and they still wouldn't tell you the answers you wanted to hear. But, perhaps they saw something in you that told them you were not someone they could trust with that information. After all, look at what you did after you left. You started yelling wo is me to anyone who would listen. But really, what have you really said of importance? Nothing, only that you got your feelings hurt by this company that had secret information. Oh boy, there's a headliner. New inovative company refuses to share proprietary information with its employees. What company does? Now, I'm not real smart, but I don't think there would be many.
Comment 77 of 132
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February 19, 2007
It would be naive of anyone to think that Citizenre has nothing to lose by full disclosure this early in the game. Look at how their perceived competition is reacting without any information at all. The truly rational companies are taking the wisest stand of all. Keep an eye on Citizenre, wait and see what they reveal in the press release. Let's adapt to new changes in the industry as needed if any at all. They are not running around yelling that the sky is falling and calling names like school children in a playground. I am sorry about whatever experience you had with Citizenre that hurt your feelings. Perhaps right now is not the right time for you to be involved. For me, they haven't asked me to spend one cent on this venture. I too would like to see more training as well. I'm in it for the long haul, What do I have to lose? Nothing.
Comment 78 of 132
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February 19, 2007
You know Richard, what you are saying is not what I have found. Every question and concern I have submitted to corporate has been handled professionally and courtiously. There are, of course questions that are not going to be answered yet for obvious reasons. As with any innovations the creators are going to be close lipped about the particulars of their plans. What would have happened if Windows in its infancy had disclosed all of their information before patents, contracts, and other infrastructural agreements were in place. Their competitors would have eaten them alive and they would be left with nothing. In a perfect world where profit is not the primary motivation and the greater good of humanity was parimount, then perhaps there would be no need to conceal particulars.
Comment 79 of 132
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February 19, 2007
Bill,

You make a good point in your comment:

"Without opposition to our program we can't identify our problems or even fix them. Preaching to the choir never leads to constructive change. All of your opposing opinions are valuable to Citizenre, or at least they should be."

Unfortunately, Citizenre doesn't want this feedback. The internal culture is extremely hostile to any ecopreneur or regional sales director who identifes and communicates problems. It is interesting that the only two ecopreneurs whose independent seller contracts were terminated by the company were two former regional sales directors who raised concerns about various red flags and problems.
Comment 80 of 132
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February 19, 2007
Bryan,
I will Forward your contact information to David Gregg if you are still interested in talking with him and his directors. If you are not comfortable posting that info on this forum space, my email is wagarrison@yahoo.com. I know that Allan Priest is happy to hear of your interest in having this discussion with Citizenre.
Comment 81 of 132
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February 19, 2007
Actually, you companies who seem to disdain us, why don't you use us. Yes, that's right I said use us. We as Citizenre independent direct sellers are going to be out there registering residential customers anyway. Why not use the ones that are in your sales territories to generate sales for your commercial programs. Also, I personally believe that if I am talking to a potential customer for Citizenre and he/she states that they do not want to wait, or they would rather purchase than rent, I would like to have a company like Bryan's to refer them to and make a little commision on the sale, than try and talk them into something they don't want. And you are not paying me a dime for my services until there is an actual sale. We can all win if we work together.
Comment 82 of 132
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February 19, 2007
Bravo Bryan. Not because you agree with me, but rather because you are looking down the road with a solution oriented mind set. Without opposition to our program we can't identify our problems or even fix them. Preaching to the choir never leads to constructive change. All of your opposing opinions are valuable to Citizenre, or at least they should be. Our critics can show us our flaws better than we ourselves can see them. We are too close to it to see sometimes. It takes outsiders with a clear view of the whole picture to see the blemishes. Help us, as Bryan suggests, to evolve this program into something that the entire industry can benefit from so that the customers can get their solar power and our grandchildren can inherit the earth, blah, blah, blah, you know the rhetoric that we are all motivated by here. I mean besides money and the ability to feed our families.
Comment 83 of 132
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February 19, 2007
Fel, that is a great article and exactly what I have been talking about. The reality though is these guys are coming to a market near you and me, whether they can deliver or not. They may be able to find a niche where the economics work for them in a couple years, certainly not this year. Regardless of when it happens, I want to be prepared, possible help them avoid giving us all black eyes (like the 80's).
Comment 84 of 132
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February 19, 2007
How sadly predictable that this forum has (mostly) devolved into a mutual backpatting session by CR cheerleaders. If anybody still has illusions about the viability of this sham, go read this deeply informative post by solar pro Carl Lenox:

http://tinyurl.com/2wyvw6

But if you don't want your bubble burst, then stay away and keep on congratulating each other here.
Comment 85 of 132
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February 19, 2007
Ok Bryan, I will may some phone calls and get back to you with that info. I don't forsee a problem. I just want to make sure I direct you correctly. This is too important for my ego to get in the way. I want this to get done right, ok? I appreciate your patience. Look for my response by tomorrow. Would you rather I just call you directly, or have them call you directly?
Comment 86 of 132
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February 20, 2007
Sign the petition to have the SEC investigate CitizenRe at:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/208387720?z00m=99858<l=1171991391#body
Comment 87 of 132
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February 20, 2007
About the "Leaked Internal Strategy Discussion", it's obvious that someone who chooses to remain anonymous wants to stack the deck against Citizenre. Where are the presentation credits? Several of the claims against the company and the business model are clearly untrue and biased. Let's face it, every business in America is a pyramid. How many people start work at McDonalds and end up owning the franchise? Try to find something good here. Solar panels add real value to the economy. If everyone just build a pyramid, the result would be prosperity for all. Economies of scale will lower costs. Free energy from the sun will pay the tab. What about those at the end of the chain? They will be your children and grand children, and poor people in third world countries, who will then have lower energy costs. Look at the drop in computer prices. The next time PV drops by fifty percent, traditional energy sources will be more expensive.
Comment 88 of 132
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February 21, 2007
Whatever is going to happen with Citizenre and this industry is already set into motion and out of our individual control. The only thing to do now is decide for ourselves how will we meet the new challanges? We can make this decision by ourselves without the little monkey screaming in our ears about the evils of Citizenre. We are all mostly adults who can think for ourselves. Trust your selves.
Comment 89 of 132
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February 21, 2007
I am sorry to say this, but, it seems that no matter what is said, or who says it, some people prefer to be confrontational instead of solution oriented and collaborative. Together we can get this done. Many of you on both sides of this issue seem to be willing to be patient and cooperative in an effort to shape this program into something that can work in a mutually beneficial manner for all parties concerned. I would suggest at this point that all of those individuals and companies that represent the voice of cooperation cease to interact with this forum until only the conflict oriented individuals are left here to rant and rave amongst themselves until even they get tired of hearing the same old rhetoric that doesn't seem to go anywhere constructive. It seems that some people wish to prolong the same arguement of what is wrong instead of offering constructive solutions.
Comment 90 of 132
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February 22, 2007
Citizenre does appear to be more of a pyramid scheme than anything else. Really, you can't sell a product that does not yet exist, and I feel that established solar energy companies are justified in their concerns about solar power getting a bad reputation.

By the way, as a teacher of science, I believe advances in technology will solve the problems facing cheap supplies of energy today. However, I also think it's unethical to sell a product that science has not yet invented.

After reading all of the above comments I would like to voice another opinion. I do not believe that Frank Knight and Jeff Wolf (not Jeff WolfE) are real people. I believe they are pseudonyms created by person or persons unknown who have a vested interest in Citizen.
Hey, it's just my opinion, but their dialog and style are transparent. And what an amazing coincidence that there is a Jeff Wolf out there so diametrically opposed to the real Jeff Wolfe.
Comment 91 of 132
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February 22, 2007
Our family uses renewable energy as much as we can, and we still live like everyone else. Citizenre's REnU program will fit nicely into our lifestyle, reducing our carbon footprint by ANOTHER 50%. We only have to wait for the system.

I work in biotech, and startups are always plagued by delays and disruptions to "The Program." Citizenre is a startup, also, but on a much larger scale. The delays and disruptions will be larger, also.

With nothing to lose, and with an early place in the installation queue, I am only happy to have signed up when I did. This is the only and biggest solution to our carbon reduction effort. What is the risk?

(disclosure: I am the Regional Sales Director for New England)
Comment 92 of 132
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February 22, 2007
WWhat Citizenre is offering is a remarkable package where the client can save money in the long run, the company should be able to make some money, and the general health of the planet is even protected. What is the United States' government doing about global warming: they have known about it for 30 years, and nothing has been done. Why change?

The global warming problem is not the fault of the government- it is at least partly our fault. We do not need to abandon our lifestyle but only to moderate it with consideration of where we spend our energy. I cannot afford the $40,000 for a PV system, so I signed up for this early on. There is nothing to lose but perhaps some time and a great possibility if we fail in our mission to transform electricity production in this country. Who, besides the coal industry, wants to have another 154 coal-fired power plants built?
Comment 93 of 132
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February 23, 2007
Howdy,
I just wanted to add another comment about thinking I was posting with mutiple names... you can think what you want... anything I post has my name which I am proudly carrying on for my Father and My Son Frank will hopefully carry the same proud name. If you want... look up the White Pages on the net and call anyone in Concrete Washington... most everyone up here knows me and you are welcome to check random #'s to see if folks think I am honest and upright. I have used the internet in the past to get help for our area with great success and have thought of the internet as a great tool for getting help... and am going to keep using it for my mission to help this poor planet!
Peace,
Bye,
Frank
Comment 94 of 132
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February 23, 2007
I am dropping the negativety... I'll let you folks that don't believe in us stay here and throw all the dirt you want... I'm gettin' out of your playpen and back to business dealing with the 1,000's of folks that do believe even if they don't see their panels for over a year. they and I feel blessed to help our poor planet by easily upgrading to Solar... watch me go! I'll stop back next year and say Howdy.... just don't wanna be wasting time in a mud throwin' match when my time will be better spent making a big difference rather than tryin' to tell folks why this can't possibly work from the experts posting in here. thanks for the experience... after takin' a break and headed up to enjoy my beautiful mountains it strengthened my mission ta make sure my Great great great Grandkids can enjoy the same beauty in nature that I do and am dedicating my life to helping.... again thanks for the skeptisism... it has made me stronger! Peace to all!
Frank
Comment 95 of 132
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February 25, 2007
A total scam...just look at the "commission" structure.
Anyone with a background in business could tell you that the $500 deposit will never be seen again--No solar systems will ever be installed--face it, the hucksters are now here.
Comment 96 of 132
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February 28, 2007
Fred:

As we have stated multiple times, no security deposits are taken until we have 600,000 SF plant built, we have a national network for franchisees in place and the customer's panels are ready to install.

Thanks,

Rob
Comment 97 of 132
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March 10, 2007
I have been searching for months for a podcast like this. Thank you for producing such an excellent podcast with such detailed information about the renewable energy industry.

I especially liked this episode. Where else could I learn about a company like Citizen-Re and get the information on both sides of the story like you've done here?

Personally, I am always suspicious of multi-level marketing schemes, even those applied to renewable energy. This one sounds really bad, just a way for a handful of people to make money off naive downline salespeople and customers. It's too bad, and it will be a real shame if it grows large enough to tarnish the entire RE industry as a multi-level marketing scam. I hope that doesn't happen.

Thanks again to Renewable Energy Access for creating such a great podcast. I will be a loyal listener from now on.
Comment 98 of 132
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March 13, 2007
Frank, I will look into your claim. I hope you are correct, but I still have my doubts. Some of these companies will not even allow net metering for schools in their service areas.
Comment 99 of 132
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March 13, 2007
Citizenre currently has 92 Utility Companies listed for Oklahoma. These are all companies that will interconnect with Citizenre Systems.
Comment 100 of 132
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March 13, 2007
Citizenre shows Oklahoma as a state with net metering for all utility types. This is not the case! Only state regulated utilities are bound by the net metering rules from the Oklahoma Corporation Commission. One look at http://dsireusa.org/ would have led them to the facts.

I can assure you that the rules have not changed recently. Practically none of the cooperatives have shown even the slightest interest in net metering and the state legislature has failed to pass a statewide net metering law several years in a row. A net metering for schools bill even died before being heard in the state legislature this year.

Did Citizenre work out individual deals with every utility in the state? If not, how can they make these claims on their website?
Comment 101 of 132
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March 13, 2007
standby and watch the success. The nay-sayers are mad because they did not think of this first. Also, don't bet on Citizenre to tell you their plans while negotiations are ongoing. You cannot negotiate in public! This is true in diplomacy and also is true in business. If I were to guess, the whole power industry does not really want this to succeed, including some in the solar industry itself. Sharp underwrites advertising on www.renewableenergyaccess.com and their spokesperson is heard in a podcast on that site, basically decrying Citizenre before it has gotten off the ground. What am I to believe about that relationship?
Comment 102 of 132
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March 13, 2007
Nobody has been duped here. No money has changed hands. This is still in pilot mode. If there is a failure here - it is on the part of Citizenre to UNDERESTIMATE the degree to which their business plan accurately gauged initial response. Should I be so lucky as to have a business be overwhelmed by positive responses from a customer base "in ready for solar that works for me" mode.
Comment 103 of 132
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March 13, 2007
I can assure you that there is NO pyramid scheme going on at Citizenre. There are MANY examples of network marketing (multi-level marketing) which are COMPLETELY above board and legitimate. Pyramid schemes are actually illegal. IF this were a pyramid scheme, the FEDS would be all over this. This is legitimate network marketing as practiced by such well known companies as Verizon, Shaklee, Microsoft AND many more. Check this link for an overview of the compensation plan here.

BTW, this would be a very good plan to be in when Citizenre succeeds!
Comment 104 of 132
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March 24, 2007
Oh, and I forgot to add: Extravagant claims, emotional appeals, little guy vs. the big interests, conspiracy theories... Dead giveaway - You too can be a millionaire with no work! Just sell! Think of the residuals!!! All free from the sun and feel good too!!!
Comment 105 of 132
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March 24, 2007
Sales associates who see easy bucks. Anything worthwhile takes time and commitment and work. Why would not someone do the engineering and the financials and present a prototype and have venture fund it? What does it mean when venture won't fund it? It means the model is bad or the upfront work hasn't been done. What does the overzealous entrepreneur do when venture won't fund? Go direct to consumer through MLM! What do those muckety-muck capitalist know anyway? When Ed Begley Jr's wife added her bit at the end of the video she might as well have said "Ed's been involved in scams before, but this one is different!" Sadly, I hereby predict that this will be another black mark on environmental movement.
Comment 106 of 132
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March 24, 2007
I'm a nobody. A nobody with an above average interest in the environment and environmentalism. I offer my unsolicited advice; some of my hard earned wisdom because I'm tired of seeing environmentalism get a black eye from false hopes and charlatans. All legitimate concerns start with engineering. Check out Tesla motors. They are not selling anything, they are HIRING engineers. I was involved in solar thermal in the early 80's. I've been involved in MLM. I found the CR website and got excited for about an hour. Then I did what you can do now with the internet in a couple of hours that was impossible before, get to the bottom of any story. Given enough time, concerned people post the facts. This whole thing reeks.
Comment 107 of 132
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March 26, 2007
Gee guys,

Another month is coming to a close and still no news about financial backing or a site for the manufacturing facility.

Guess it's time to push back the promised install date to...well, let's face it, never.

CitizenRe, give up the ghost and let your associates go free.
Comment 108 of 132
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April 3, 2007
Stand out of the way defeatists and skeptics! Citizenre is making an announcement SOON:

Here is an update from Citizenre & Rob Styler... It will be interesting to find out the details!

==========================
Manufacturing Plant update
Rob Styler - 2007-04-01 17:01:48

We have selected the site for our manufacturing plant. Next week we will be making a definitive announcement about the date of our press release on our weekly corporate call. This is normally on Sunday night, but because of Easter, we will have it on Monday April 9th at 6pm Pacific (just for this week).

People will be buying plane tickets, etc...so this is the real deal. Thank you for your patience through this long negotiation. It will be worth the wait. David Gregg has done, and is doing, an incredible job of securing our future.

Thanks,

Rob
==========================
Comment 109 of 132
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April 10, 2007
Mark:

Lets start with the idea that some believe this is a scam. Scam is defined as:

"noun: informal - a dishonest scheme; a fraud"

I can think of no reason why a scam like you suggest Citizenre is engaged in would be perpetrated on so many people - considering that NO money has changed hands. What is all that about? The only money being spent is by investors in this so called scheme. This accusation MAKES NO SENSE.

Do you honestly believe this is a scam to collect email addresses? That is just preposterous! A fraud to scam old ladies? What?

Let me see if I can come up with a scam of my own. Oh, I know: "A governor & 2 US Senators, along with other important people, are having trouble deciding on a mutually acceptable date/time for a PUBLIC announcement." Now, that is a "scam" I can get with.

It will happen in a matter of days... despite your accusation of a scam being perpetrated on a lot of smart people.

Chris
Comment 110 of 132
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April 10, 2007
Chris,

I am sorry to say that I think you will be disappointed when you find that your time and energy has been gone to naught.

You are caught up in, and have become part, of a scam that will bring no good to anyone.

Good Luck with it.
Comment 111 of 132
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April 10, 2007
Persistently finding fault are we?

At this point, I'm sure they are sorry they mentioned that an announcement was going to be made. I still have NO doubt that the announcement will come a soon as they really do have the date set for the Press Event. And I am confident it is imminent.

Why don't you relax and give them a few more days?
Comment 112 of 132
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April 10, 2007
Cock-A-Doodle-Do

OK Chris, what do ya have for us?

What's the big news about the big plans?

Did Rob lay it all out in the call yesterday?

Oh, let me guess, you still can't talk about the details!
Comment 113 of 132
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April 11, 2007
You also claim that the system is FREE. It never was, never has been and never will be. Also, sales associates are operating under the MLM model of compensation. Perfectly legitimate income model and business model. Sales associates are not working for free. Get the facts straight.

You obviously DO NOT have the vision to see what is possible. Moreover, since you are obviously not on the inside at Citizenre, you DON'T have a clue how the business model is setup to work. Do you? So anything you dream up about the "scam" going on is just that, isn't it?

Are you also of the opinion that we never landed on the moon?
Comment 114 of 132
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April 11, 2007
That is quite a farfetched sequence of events you outline in scam #1. Do you have any more you can send my way so I can laugh even harder and longer?

Naivete is not really a problem here. I'm not going to lose ANYTHING. But what I am doing is setting up a future cash stream based on hard work today. I lose nothing but time if it never comes to pass. I gain a huge amount if it does. Business 101 - risk benefit analysis - look it up.

But if I'm naive, then the investors carrying all the satchels of cash will have to be REALLY STUPIDLY naive in order for your ridiculous scam scenario to play out. Your idea that these huge amounts of money are simply going to be turned over into bonus money is just preposterous. Get a life and dream up a conspiracy theory that would actually work.
Comment 115 of 132
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April 11, 2007
OK great! It's time to sign the deal with the investors. Now you've got lots of money. Pay yourself a good salary, give yourself a big signing bonus, do the same for your closest friends.

Now go thru the motions of trying to make the impossible happen. But when it doesn't, and everything falls apart and the money is all spent, no problem, cause you got your signing bonus, you got your big salary, and you can move on to the next scam.

Possible?
Comment 116 of 132
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April 11, 2007
Chris,

Your naivite in the matter is truly arresting.

OK, Let's see, scam #1:

Get a bunch of people hyped up about free solar including a small army of want-to-do-good unpaid sales associates. Call them Ecopenuers to give it even more of a do-good feel. Send them out to get a bunch of uniformed consumers hyped up on the idea of free solar. Get them to sign agreements to receive some free product at sometime in future. Don't forget the slick website and so forth.

Now that you look big and good and growing, go talk to some investors with money. Get them hyped on free solar, and making alot of profit from their investment.
Comment 117 of 132
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April 11, 2007
Mark:

I made the choice to work as a sales associate for Citizenre. I'm the one making the decision to spend time on this. And, OBTW, that does NOT represent very much time at all for most sales associates. HOW has Citizenre forced this on me in any way?

And why do you believe that the customer will not benefit? Why do you believe sales associates will not benefit? Why do you believe that Citizenre will not benefit? If the Citizenre plan succeeds, as many of us believe it will, we will all benefit!

Critics are completely skirting the point that NO MONEY HAS CHANGED HANDS. How is this a plan for an entity perpetrating a fraudulent scam, which is what you imply here? The only possible motivation for a scam of such scale is to wring money from the victim.

What POSSIBLE motivating factor is there for Citizenre to lead us around (like we are sheep, as you imply) with no possibility of taking our money? Please try to answer this one question.

Chris
Comment 118 of 132
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April 11, 2007
Chris,

At least part of the scam is upon you, recruiting your time and energy to work on something that will bring you no benefit, nor will it bring benefit to others.
Comment 119 of 132
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April 12, 2007
Chris,

It was you who posted the the "possible" in all caps when asking about possible scams.

I offered one "possibility" that in the grand scheme of things is not that far fetched, in my humble opinion.

I really don't know what the internal machinations of CitizenRe are, but I can say with all confidence, based on the external evidence, that they will not be delivering on their promises, and you are not setting up a cash stream of any sort.

I'm still waiting for the next big announcement so I can have a little laugh of my own.
Comment 120 of 132
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April 13, 2007
Mark:

I'm sorry that you are so vexed by the possibilities inherent in the apparent success of Citizenre to gain industry attention.

Let's talk after Citizenre makes their announcement.

Chris
Comment 121 of 132
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April 14, 2007
Howdy Mark,
Please brace yourself! Start laughin' and enjoy it! It will not be long... better get the laughin' and screamin' outa your system and get ready to cry... you are one of few that are gonna hate to hear Citizenre's news in a very very short time. I will gladly ship you a box of hankies... you will need them. You are welcome to join our team but you better hurry!
Lovin' it!
Frank
Comment 122 of 132
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April 15, 2007
Frank,

I'm standing by.

Thanks for the invite, but I'm not interested in joining your team, the team that delivers nothing for nothing.

Reflecting on the term "Lovin' It", that is pretty close to the current McDonald's branding theme isn't it? I guess in some ways CitizenRe aspires to be the McDonald's of solar. One Billion Sold!

But you see, I don't eat at McDonald's, and I won't play with CitizenRe. I like to stick to the real thing, whether it's food or PV.

Till Then
Comment 123 of 132
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April 24, 2007
Hi Mark,
Just dropping by from the other thread. Good work. Frank Knight's got some Koolaid if anyone's drink'in.

My summary: Rob promised to deliver an already delayed announcement IN MARCH. Now April's closing its doors and the procrastination continues.

In the worst case scenario, CitizenRE could be a penniless future's gambit - if the market goes her way, she wins, otherwise she folds with no means of making good on the bet.

Certainly no one can claim not to have been warned.

Ben
Comment 124 of 132
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May 16, 2007
My previous post is of course referring to what Ben Gatti said above.
Comment 125 of 132
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May 16, 2007
"Frank Knight's got some Koolaid if anyone's drink'in."

You are very rude and your weak credibility is dowm to zero.
Comment 126 of 132
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May 20, 2007
sorry that was rude.

I really do hope that their company does live up to it's plan, however i do worry that i'm right.

delight me and prove me wrong. but show me, don't write me.

regards
peter
Comment 127 of 132
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May 20, 2007
Can Anyone of you say BRE-X?

Look it up, it might explain who's making money here and how...

I wonder how many shares CitizenRe's directors are awarding themselves lately...
Comment 128 of 132
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May 23, 2007
Peter;
CitizenRe is a private company that is not listed in the stock market. They have not collected one penny from anyone at this point.
www.powur.com/yorkville
Comment 129 of 132
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May 28, 2007
In Fact, CitizenRe hasn't done anything yet, and never will.
Comment 130 of 132
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July 23, 2007

Hmm, I just read 276 comments in this thread and was interested enough in the conversation to register so I could post some comments. After logging in, there are now only 132 comments. Why did all the most recent ones disappear?

Well, regardless,  here are my thoughts.

First, we are all Earthlings here and are all best served went we remain polite and constructive in our discourse. For the most part, the contributors here get high marks in that and I appreciate it. (Have to ding you a point or two Ben for occasionally being a tad too strident for my taste, but I do find your commentary logical and persuasive.  And I do believe your intention is to help the CRE true believers avoid getting hurt.)

On the flip side of that coin, I find the self reinforcing "great plan" comments by the CRE faithful to be a bit disingenuous.  I have heard no one beyond the self invested refer to this as a "great plan." I am personally not convinced it is even a workable plan, much less a "great" one.  But neither am I convinced that there is any conscious intent to do wrong.  If there is a market niche here that CRE is able to fill, that is great and I hope you all live happily and comfortably ever after.

However, the main point to me has been entirely missed. I am a "home-owner" (read I have the right to live in my house as long as my $3000/mo mortgage payments are made in a timely fashion) and consider myself to be a green. I want, and intend to have, a solar energy system in the near future. But I am not looking to exchange energy vendors or "lock-in" my already unbearably high energy expenditures ($400 - $600/mo.)  I am looking to reduce my costs in the long run and do so in an ecologically friendly way. I am looking to disengage myself from corporations who serve their own best interests, not my best interests. While CRE addresses the environmentally friendly part of the equation, it is just a different company to send the monthly check to, forever. No sale.

In conclusion, while I am skeptical that CRE can deliver on their promises, I wish them well and hope they succeed. But even if they do, their model does not address my needs, and, I suspect, probably not the needs of the majority of CA "homeowners." Pitch me again when you have a Rent To Own solution. 

May all our futures be green...Tom


Comment 131 of 132
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August 5, 2007
The 276 (actually 278) comments are in the next thread at
http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=47453
Comment 132 of 132
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