Citizenre: A House of Cards?

HEllo: I have been in the solar industry and alternative industry for 29 years. From what I have read; both sides of this argument have honest people on it. I applaud both sides for their interest in solar. However; it is just this type of intense excitment that always feeds this type of energy scam. I have almost been duped by this type of "fantastic deal" many times in the alternate energy industry. For the scam to be good it has to have honest people promoting it on the front end to work.  All you sparkling young excited solar puppys make the dream seem real. I have been building photo systems for some time now. Addtionally we have pioneered energy service contracts which almost parralel the proposed lease agreements offered. However;From the numbers I am aware of this program would have to have an insane/angel billionare or a huge bank with no  recourse with their stock holders to pull this off. Or some other energy saving devices involved. The finances and the logistics don't work in the real solar world that are claimed here. I wish they did. We do something similar  for our customers but in our State we have some pretty good rebates and tax credit programs and its still a hard way to go. From what I see they don't have a means to utilize even these advantage to pull this off. Good luck I hope it works but at the moment I am placing my bets on the scam vote.I wish I did not have to say that. The only thing I could think would be that they are stacking "paper" with the intnet to borrow against this potential market they are pre-contracting- but the other signs point to scam. About a year ago you practically could not buy photocells because there was such a shortage of silicon. O..REally where do they plan to get all the Silly CON.

I'd like to point out that CitizenRE is activily DISCOURAGING people from purchasing Solar power systems.

Here is a google ad:

 
Don't buy solar power.
Get your questions answered.
Find out what 10,000+ already know.
SolarForAmerica.com

I think we can agree - this is not progress.

Benjamin Gatti 

Last, there is the question of compensation. It is not nearly as good as it sounds. $100 when the audit is approved (that means, when they get around to it). $100 when the install occurs - if the install does not occur, you not only do not get the $100, you have to pay back the amount paid when the audit was approved. They suggest that 50% of houses will not qualify when it comes time to install (in one place - elsewhere they say, "any house with a southern exposure"). I think it may in fact be much higher than that. The other levels of compensation are not well defined, and are, I think, meant to suggest more than they would deliver, being dependent upon performance criteria that is ill-defined. For that compensation, you are expected to do quite a bit of work (I have no problem with work - it is the essential element upon which every business is built),  and the work and expense are glossed over. An honest company has no need to imply that the work is minimal. And you do the same amount of work for each prospect, whether their house eventually qualifies or not.

Contradiction, concealment, illogic, and incomplete plans add up to a bad smell.

In addition to the other concerns, there is the question of value. When power is reimbursed through net metering (and often it is not), and even when it is credited, it is credited at WHOLESALE rates, and used again at RETAIL rates.

The presentation is disingenuous, as is the company's approach to instructing their resellers. They suggest careful wording, to IMPLY, without STATING, so they can give a false impression without stating absolutely that the impression is accurate. "No up front fees" is misleading. A deposit is considered an expense if you cannot use the money for 25 years. Their claims that people can easily upgrade when new technology arrives on the scene are also misleading - they neglect to mention the $500 cost each time (because your deposit is then forfeit). When you are already obtaining power in a situation which does not in fact save you money, an additional $500 every few years would make it totally unaffordable. They imply the technology changes will occur that often in an attempt to suggest that renting is better - if it DOES occur every few years, you will PAY every few years for an upgrade. 

What I have to ask is, when no facility is even in the preliminary stages (there would be publicly available news if there were), and when all of the "innovations" of the program are purely theoretical, and based on presumption rather than fact, where is the genuine potential for any outcome other than failure?

Each question asked is answered by evasion, or by answers which only complicate the picture - for example, in answer to the 1/2 day install scheduling, Mr Willis claimed that there were ways to reduce install time. He suggested lifts as being one solution. Lifts are expensive. "Mom and Pop" franchises cannot afford to either purchase them, or to rent them ($200 per day). The cost of that alone, would make the entire install process as outlined completely unsustainable.

And, since no facility is in progress at any level that would result in production within the next three to five years, why does the company continue to promote this as being just around the corner? 

I am approaching this strictly from a standpoint of having reviewed  countless internet marketing and MLM scams and near-scams. CitizenRe makes me uneasy - VERY MUCH so. Because what they say cannot be supported by good business sense. The only thing I have yet to figure out, is where they are actually profiting from it. It is certain that no one else at this point is profiting, and in fact, it is costing people in ways they minimize (paper, stamps, ink, publishing, etc).

We have an alternative energy facility being built near our town. We have heard buzz about it for 4 years now. It took that long to get through the committees and approval processes. IF there were a facility being built for CR, it would have hit the news - it MUST pass the approval committees, and to do so it must be open for public debate. It takes several years to get a manufacturing facility approved in most areas - 1-2 years AT LEAST. From this, we can conclude, that nothing is anywhere NEAR groundbreaking, much less actually producing anything. 

No, the facility isn't built yet, but will be started soon, as soon as all the planning, permitting, etc. is completed. At that time you (and we) will know a lot more in detail about what Citizenre is and what plans we have.

The reason we are not to contact utilities, etc. is that a lot of us really don't know enough to talk with them, which confuses the issue. Citizenre has people to contact utilities and states.

Has it occured to you that all of us Ecopreneurs plus all of our customers (about 20,000 people right now) can be an enormous help convincing politicians to pass the right bills for sustainable energy? That's a lot more than previously could work toward the effort.

We're all in this together to make this country (and the world) a better place!

By the way, using MLM makes very good business sense, both for Citizenre and for us Ecopreneurs.

Citizenre gets access to thousands of people who we know. Our customers even get referral discounts, so they find customers. The Ecopreurs don't have to spend a penny to be part of this. I personally have links on my personal website and blog and in my email signature. Beyond that I've bought a stack of business cards which are easy to hand out. The only required expense is envelopes, paper and stamps.

There is no initiation fee, no monthly product to buy. We can sit back and let customers come to us, or we can be more active, and spend whatever we feel is appropriate. Some have bought banners, T-shirts and booths at shows. This will easily be covered with the advance.

The advertising you quote is NOT official Citizenre text, and is not appropriate. We do not discourage people from buying. I tell them if they want to spend $20,000 to have it now, that's fine with me. I've been telling some businesses and non-profits about ways they can get panels now.

Our goal is to get panels on roofs, and for many of us, earning compensation is secondary. That's pretty cheap marketing for Citizenre!

Hi Laura,

You got some of it rig, but not all of it. Let me help with some more accurate information.

The question of wholesale vs retail rates is a utility by utility issue. Some it's one, some it's the other from what I understand.

The customer's deposit of $500 is a far cry from $20,000 that has to be financed! For that money, they can have the panels removed or moved once for free. David Gregg has said that after about 10 years, if panels are taken down for any reason, they will probably be replaced with whatever newer model the company is making at that time. He has interesting ideas about what to do with the old ones as well. The deposit will be returned with interest after the 25 years.

Most ecopreneurs will be receiving a $30 advance when the contract is audited, which will be starting probably late summer. Then $120 on installation and $150 after 1 year, plus a percentage on customers' bills all 25 years. It actually adds up to a nice sum.

I'd also strongly question the validity of the "advance". First of all, if the panels are never installed, the advance has to be paid back. Second, there are no audits taking place, and if the advance is not due to BEGIN to be paid until they get 10,000 customers it is nowhere close - Their primary website lists over 18,000 customers, but there are only a little over 5600 FRAs returned. Looks like it is going to be a LONG time before any of that shows up, if it ever does.

They do not PROMISE to pay that advance either... they say only that they "intend" to do so. They also state that it will be 10% of the IRA, BUT... they quote $30 in one place, but that is also misleading - they quote that based on the ENTIRE commission you CAN earn, but the actual payouts quoted for most distributors are just $200, not $300. Wow... $20... IF they ever get to that point, and IF you accumulate $100 in commissions (you must accumulate $100 before they pay out), and IF you don't have to pay it back... Oh yes, and IF it is a 25 year contract (1 year contracts have no IRA... NONE. they do not say what 5 year contracts get).

And the numbers listed on their full compensation plan are $100 at audit and $100 at install, not the $150 you quote - that money is not available until you get into the second frame for compensation.

There are a lot of suggestions to go ahead and spend this, or spend that (event funding, incentives to referrers, marketing materials, etc), because after all, the IRA will easily pay for it. But right now, there IS no IRA, there IS no advance, there is only AIR. I just don't feel real good about someone telling me to spend money on this or that because their "someday" promises will cover it!

Ummm... the facility will NOT be "started soon". Not if your definition of "soon" is any time within the next 2 years. Have you ever been in an area where a major facility was being built? Have you ever seen the kinds of politicking they have to do to get it approved? Have you ever been in on public debates and public meetings that are necessary to allow the facility to be approved? From the time they choose a site, to the time they actually get permission to BUILD there, is invariably 2 years or more - RARELY it can happen in a year, but only in an area where there is NO opposition.

That process ALWAYS involves publicity. If it is open to public debate (and it must be), then there WOULD be publicity if the company had so much as chosen a site! If they have not done that, they are still YEARS away from groundbreaking! This is not speculation. This is the reality of the world we live in! 

Do people think that just because they are making solar panels that there will be no environmental concerns with the manufacturing facility? Operational standards for factories are on the rise. Every single manufacturing facility in the nation has opposition to it. There is always someone who does not want it in their back yard. We have a facility being built near here - and all the people who had to sign on the dotted line WANTED it to happen! It STILL took TWO YEARS to get it THIS FAR, and it still has another year or more before they can break ground.

It is my belief that not only is there no facility, there never was one even planned. I believe that this company was formed for a different goal, and that funding and building a facility were never really part of the plan - only the illusion that there was.

And how much did you spend on the business cards, how many packets have you mailed at a cost of approximately $2 each (two stamped envelopes, one stamped manila envelope, and several sheets of printed paper, all of which you pay for)? And how much time have you spent that you could have spent actually earning? 

You are right that the net metering policies vary from company to company - but the fact of the matter is, purchasing wholesale, and selling retail is as GOOD as it gets - it is often worse. No business will buy retail, and sell retail, when they lose money in the bargain. If they meter energy going INTO the system at the house, and then return the SAME amount of energy, they lose, because of line loss. Power companies know this, they aren't stupid, this is their area of expertise. They also have to pay to maintain the metering equipment, the lines, and the delivery infrastructure. That costs. There is no way they'd ever offer any better than wholesale purchase and retail sale... Anyone who thinks they should is deluding themselves, and has no concept of business realities.

The whole CR plan does not make business sense. Either for the supplier, or for the customer. There is no way I'd pay full price for power I do not use, in the hopes that my electric company might credit me for part of what I did not use. 

Any advertising I quoted was directly from the CR website.

I think we have two separate issues here: Encouraging solar is a separate issue from encouraging CitizenRe. Evangelism where CR is concerned is inappropriate. It would be like concluding that computers are good so Microsoft is the best company that ever existed. Two separate issues.

I've noticed that as of the last three months, the company is no longer talking at all - only the distributors. Why is that, I wonder? If there were anything real, they'd still be talking.

Also, CR says that deposits may be higher than $500 - they continue to quote that $500 number, but in fact most deposits WILL be higher - and they say you lose your deposit if your contract is voided, and quote $500 as the cost of that, but in fact, you could lose more. That deposit is always minimized, but the very target market they are after doesn't have $500 to $1000 sitting around to lose either. We are in a HIGHLY mobile society, even homeowners move on average every three years. For a service that will cost you more for energy, and which will cost you each time you move, or each time a major unforseen circumstance hits, I think the real cost could be several times the cost of current electrical rates in some areas, when spread out over time. Fine if you want to pay it, but since they are promoting this as a cost savings to a target market to whom that is important, and it really isn't a savings, it is misleading. The more math you do, the worse it looks.

On a similar topic, I have taken an introduction to PV from Solar Energy International in Carbondale,CO  I live in WA state (Seattle) and would very much like to stay in this state and become a solar technician/installer/system designer.  If anybody knows any good sources for finding jobs/training in this emerging field--could you please email me at geoffmcbride@comcast.net

I enjoy this discussion and really hope citzenre is viable and for real.  It seems crazy that they would go to all this effort to scam people or for any other reason than to do what they are saying they want to do.  The person who claimed way above in this thread that they are going after people's security deposits--that claim seem totally preposterous to me.  At that point--someone is actually coming to your house and designing a system to meet your energy needs.  That is the point you give up your security deposit.  Don't you think they'd try to get money a little earlier in the game if this was one grand scam?  I do!

Maybe they all work for godaddy.com and are trying to sell more domain names like www.iwentsolar.com  Now that would be a solid business model for godaddy

Geoff,

how would you respond to the complaint that citizenre is activily discouraging the purchase of clean, green energy - as in this google ad:

  
Don't buy solar power.
Get your questions answered.
Find out what 10,000+ already know.
SolarForAmerica.com

Ben,
It's very unfortunate when Ecopreneur's post ads that are not considered accecptable by corporate. We as ECO's try and watch the net looking for such ads. As we grow our base of Independent Direct Sellers, it gets to be more of challenge to police.
A few months back we made our testing more difficult to pass without studying the training material, which clearly covers these type of ads.

Disclosure: IDS Powur of Citizenre

Jeff,

You are very knowledgeable about the Solar Energy industry.  Answer one question for me:  How am I going to get Solar energy for my home? 

I, like 70 Million other Americans, make under $70K a year, and can not afford to spend $30,000 on a system.  The Solar industry can't lose my business; it never had it.

Right now, I'm in line to get my system, that's all.  If CitizenRe delivers, great!  If not, doesn't someone else have too?  I will never have $30,000 to spend on a solar system.  Never. 

Are there unanswered questions?  Yes.  Is the roll out going to miss some deadlines?  Probably.   Who cares?  We have to take a stand!  By We, I mean the 98% of us who will never be able to afford a solar system. 

Some people act when they see the light, others when they feel the heat.  Jeff, I'm afraid you are the later.  Use your experience and knowledge to tell me how CitizenRe can work, not how it won't.

Kenny Flamer, Independent Ecoprenuer

Howdy Dr. George,

I have copied what Rob Styler wrote in our internal Forums.

Peace,

Frank Knight

Here is his post:

Some people (ie Richard George) have posted critiques of our press release claiming that we will not be able to deliver because of the stock market, etc. At first, we were planning to spend the time with Brown Rudnick and our other partners to refute all of those concerns, but upon reflection we decided that this would just take more time and could easily turn into a waste of "no you can't," "YES, we can."

If it was one simple response, no big deal...but once you engage, it often creates a life of its own that consumes an ever increasing amount of energy.

The best use of our time right now is to focus on delivering, not arguing with those who say we can't.

One of my favorite quotes is, "Those who say it can't be done, annoy those of us doing it."

We don't have much longer before all of these concerns will be mute.

We will continue to release more information.

Thanks for your patience and for hanging tough.

Rob

There is definately a void of information around the status of Citizenre. Whenever this situation exists, speculation will thrive. The first question you have to answer for yourself before you can truly take a position on Citizenre is do you think they are authentic and ernest in what they are selling. Once you answer that, it will color every side of the argument. The power of the Citizenre program is that people want home solar. Moreover, people want to be a part of it. Throw in the idea of making money while doing it, and you have the perfect marketing scenario.

We can speculate the short term success of Citizenre like we can predict a race in progress by watching the racers position on the course. If a racer is at the back of the pack mid race, that racers fate is pretty clear. However, predicting the long term success is a whole different story. If people want it to succeed and all involved refuse to take no for an answer, then the initiative cannot and will not be stopped.

Everything discussed here in reference to Citizenre meeting deadlines can be debated on details and progress. However the ultimate success of the program will not depend on anything said here. If people want it, and refuse to be stopped, Citizenre will succeed. 

The only reason we are having this discussion is because Citizenre gave some timelines and figures. Perhaps those statements were premature. I don't have the direct knowledge to say so. But, the reality is that people want it. People are committed to the idea of solar powered homes. Based on the amount of people Citizenre has signed up already, people are committed to action as well. 

The key thing that I ask Mr. Wolfe to look at is who all of these people are who have signed up. Independant marketers and home-owners. Nobody who signed up for this program is doing it strictly for the money to be made. They are all environmentally minded people who want to make a difference. Why did they pick Citizenre? Very simple. It is the only game in town. It is the only place where the average Joe can actually take action.

As for hurting the other established Solar businesses, I will share this with you all. This weekend we went to the Tampabay home show. For those who have never been to a homeshow, everyone you can imagine in the area has there products there. From corporate show booths to local businesses. After canvassing the entire convention center, I found 3 business that did solar. 2 of which did home solar and both specialized in hot water heating. Only 1 of them claimed to do home photovoltaic installations and that business told me and my wife that they were impractical and expensive and acutally quoted the figure of $100,000 for an installation. The representative went on to say that hot water was the only reasonable solar project they recommend. If you live in the Tampabay area, there are no choices for solar electric home installations. So, in Tampabay, there are no PV installers to be hurt by the Citizenre movement.

For me personally, I would like more clarity on the progress of Citizenre as it happens. I have heard it said that the release of too much information could hurt the company strategically. I cannot speak to that statement because I simply do not know. However, at this point, I can see nothing negative about supporting or participating in Citizenre. If it does not come to fruition, so be it. I believe in the cause so, to me, that is enough. Besides, what else is there?

Stephen,

 Your enthusiasm is commendable, I won't argue with the fact that CitizenRe's success would benefit everyone.  However, as an outside, consider 3 points that will make the business challenging right now.

1) High demand and low supply for silicon = high prices => low margins for CitizenRe

2) Without government subsidies  the solar business cannot yet function as a for-profit enterprise.  Although subsidies look great now, if the economy slows as it very well may, that means less money in the coffers of states and that means spending cuts.  Are record high oil prices sustainable with a shrinking US economy? 

The question is how long can you depend on the government to make a non-economic business viable?  As you mention, Solar has been around a long time; subsidies have been pulled before.

Existing rebate programs are burning through their budgets and will not last as they were intended.  No doubt there is pressure on government to pour money into renewable energy, but right now you are fighting with lower-middle class folks being kicked out of their houses.  Not a fight I'd like to be on the other side of.

3) Dr. Morgage Finance expert guy has a point.  Regardless of the particulars of CitizenRe's business model - which I do not have - they are straightforward in the way they are effected by the credit problems this country - and indeed the world - is facing. 

CitizenRe borrows in the capital markets to pay for system installation and uses the income from selling power to cover their cost of financing.  You don't get $700M from the bank for unsecured lending....and that type of financing is not cheap - I used to give it out.  The credit markets are still in turmoil - the stock market rallied yesterday and today, but the bond market didn't really care.  Thats the market CitizenRe cares about. 

Risk is being overpriced, and although it may be boring, it has a very real impact on the bottom line of anyone in a looking to profit from the spread of borrowing cheap and lending for more - which is the only way this business model makes any sense.

 Again - this is food for thought for anyone looking to invest their valuable time in this venture.  Your time is yours, spend it as you like - but as an entreprenuer you well know that having proper information about your business is the key to knowing whether you should spend your time there or somewhere else. 

 If you truly believe in Solar make sure you weigh all your options to make it happen.

 - Andrew

WANRING: I am about to open up a can of worms, but I don't care...and you shouldn't either.  I preface this post by saying I just want people to open their minds a little bit.

 I am a CitizenRe Ecopreneur.  I “Joined the Solution” on 3-16-07.  I am proud to be part of the fastest growing CitizenRe team in the country.  Hello to all my Cap City Solar people.  I have been reading this thread since I first started looking into CitizenRe.  There are some interesting posts on here to say the least.  I have few things I would like to address:

First, where are you Jeff Wolfe?  I can’t find a post from you since 2-14-07.  Where did you go buddy?  You started this thing rolling and have since disappeared. Also, there is a rumor going around that you are putting together your own solar rental model?  I find this interesting and would like to know whether it is true or not.  I don't want anyone on my team spreading false info.  Can you put an end to this rumor for me with a clear YES or NO?  I hate gossip and this sounds pretty outlandish to me.  Then again, this might be why you aren’t posting anymore.  Either way, can you post a quick something for us?

Second, CitizenRe corporate has been keeping a tight lid on things and that has been a source of stress within the Ecopreneur network.  Some can't handle the stress, others can.  To those who get involved with CitizenRe, as with any new business venture, take the time to determine what level of investment you are comfortable with.  Create a plan of action and a budget and stick to it.  I run a large service company in Austin, Texas that is pretty successful.  We have been in a position several times where we had to play the risk/reward game and I can say this with confidence that I will take the risk/reward scenario with CitizenRe over some of the decisions we have had to make with our company any day.  Being an Ecopreneur means running your own business and I don't know of any business you can run without some risk and investment.  That's so obvious I can't believe I am even saying it.  For the posters who are knocking the money we are investing, IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS WHAT WE DO WITH OUR MONEY.  Do you get it?  It's not a subtle point I am trying to make.  Furthermore, CitizenRe didn’t trick me into investing.  It was a personal decision based on a lot of factors, two if which are my strong beliefs that our planet is being poisoned and our existing energy grid is operating beyond capacity.  CitizenRe is not paying out any money to Ecopreneurs right now.  It could be that way for another year or two.  It is very hard to say, so fellow Ecopreneurs, don’t over extend yourself.  This is a mistake that many a small business owner have made.  As with any small business, you should plan to not turn a profit for the first two years and budget accordingly.

Third, there are few things having to do with logistics and infrastructure that many of you posters are overlooking.  Who says CitizenRe has to 'build' a factory?  It wouldn't be too hard to find an existing location that is suitable for a production facility and with the absolute power of our political systems, it is also not a far stretch to think that the unveiling of the factory location will coincide with elections and that the powers that be are assisting in keeping things under wraps until they can both educate themselves about our model and capitalize on its release.  Who wouldn’t want to be the one getting the credit for bringing the largest renewable energy factory in the US into their backyard?  In fact, I would speculate that there is going to be an all-out war for who gets to take that credit.  We are at what is arguably the most heightened state of Environmental Awareness in US History.

Third –and-a-half, I would think that there are plenty of national companies out there that have the capacity to handle the franchising side of the business, installing the number of systems currently reserved, without any problem.  Sure, they'll have to hire some engineers to handle the feasibility/site study, but if you go to your local community college website and try to get into a 'Certified Solar Installer' class, you will see that a) there are more and more of these classes being offered, and b) they fill up FAST.  I know because I just tried to get into the classes not only in Austin - 4 locations (all full) but in San Antonio as well (same thing).  My point being that the number of solar installers is increasing at an alarming rate.  There will be no shortage of qualified people who are ready, willing and able to get the systems up and running.

Fourth, who are all you people?  What are you doing to help the environment?  Do you actions (if any) cost you time and/or money in this arena?  The way I see it, basically everything you can do to help the environment right now requires an investment of time and/or money.  CitizenRe is asking for a time investment and whatever money you are willing to invest in the marketing of your business…nothing more.  I get a kick out of all the posters on here who are WASTING their time beating CitizenRe down, and for what?  How does that help the solar industry, or the environment?  I have zero tolerance for people who only come to the table with a problem.  How about coming to the table with a solution to a problem instead of all this negativity?  It’s far too easy, and has become far too commonplace in today’s society, to point the finger and to break down rather than building up.  Try rolling up your sleeves and creating something positive in your life.  I think you will find it both rewarding and empowering.  If CitizenRe isn't the solution, that's okay.  Show me what the solution is and quit being a Debbie Downer. 

Fifth, what's all this BS about hurting the solar industry?  You’re kidding right?  Tell me that’s a joke!!!  Are you talking about the industry that in the last forty years has, for all intents and purposes, been a complete and total failure?  The same industry that has managed to bring its product to a WHOPPING fraction of a fraction of 1% of the total single family residences in the United States!!!  Solar has been around for a long time folks.  WAKE UP!!!  There’s nowhere for it to go but up.  If something smells here it's all the posts slamming us for making a concerted effort to do something that no one in history has been able to accomplish.  SO WHAT IF WE FAIL AT BRINGING SOLAR TO THE MASSES!!!  At the very least, David Gregg and Rob Styler are out there trying to find a way to do something great, to pull off something that has never been done before.  Can you say that?  And in a lot of ways CitizenRe has been a HUGE success.  We have a list of over 20,000 people who are willing to not just say, “Yeah, I like solar power,” but to sign a Forward Rental Agreement Application which clearly states that they have every intention of moving forward with solar power for their home.  What other company has ever even come close to pulling this off? 

Sixth, I saw something about our closing ratio being somewhere around 50% and how the numbers were up and down, some geographic areas being higher than others and there being no consistency.  This is sales people.  The next time you see a copier salesman come into your office ask him/her what their closing ratio is, or a car salesman, or the rep at the model home in your subdivision.  They would KILL for a closing percentage anywhere over 25% GUARANTEED!!!  We all know as Ecopreneurs that there are going to be customers that drop off and that we will lose some IRA dollars.  So what?  Once CitizenRe starts paying out, those ‘drop offs’ will simply be deducted from the new ones I add each month and I’ll move on.  I’m not gonna end up having to pay CitizenRe back.  And even if I did, THAT’S BUSINESS PEOPLE.  I have had to give refunds before at my company.  It happens to every company.  Show me a company that doesn’t pay refunds and I’ll show you a crooked company.  THAT is a fact.  So quit painting Ecopreneurs into the role of victims and start seeing us and CitizenRe for what we are, visionary businesspeople working our tails off so YOU can have a better planet.

Do I have to remind you that it’s your whiny butts we will ultimately be saving by taking so much stress off an already overworked energy grid?  A simple thank you would be nice, maybe a pat on the back for all the work we are doing to make YOUR future a better place to live. 

Take a minute and read this alarming article that came out 9/18/07 (yesterday) in the Austin American Statesman about the state of the energy situation in Texas.  http://www.statesman.com/business/content/business/stories/other/09/18/0918energy.html When Warren Buffet and Bill Gates get involved in electricity transmission it’s to make money.  And that money is there for the taking because we DON’T HAVE ENOUGH ELECTRICITY.  Texas rates are predicted to go up 24% in the next 12 months and these guys are jumping on the opportunity to capitalize on it.  Our locked in rates for 25 years are starting to sound pretty good aren’t they? 

Oh, and don’t assume you have all the answers about how CitizenRe’s rates are negotiated with the utilites.  In fact, I think I’ll assume you have no idea what you are talking about unless you have experience doing just that.  To you posters that are corporate attorneys with utility litigation experience, enlighten us.  Everyone else, quit talking about stuff you aren’t qualified to be ranting about.  Stop assuming that someone who installs solar panels knows the first thing about this subject.  And to “Dr. Mortgage and Finance Expert Guy”, you bore me.  How can you pretend to know what you are talking about? Did you see the Stock Market yesterday?  I think the Fed dropped the rate ½ a point?  Also, you shouldn’t pretend to have any idea where CitizenRe’s margins are or what their business plan looks like.  When you have a hard copy and can quote me something from their business plan and then debunk it, I will listen.  Until then, stop speculating on your own assumptions.  The fact that we are signing people up for 25 years doesn’t mean we are seeking 25 year financing for the systems.  But you probably know that and posted it anyway.  Your bias becomes obvious in the last line of your post where you write “MLM Scheme”.  Tell me what part of this seems like a scheme to you.  Is it the FREE Feasibility Study we will be doing on every home we have signed up?  Is it the…well, why don’t you tell me.  People hate MLMs for a reason and if you can define one of those reasons as it applies to CitizenRe, I will be happy to apologize for picking on you.  I would sincerely like to hear what you have to say on this matter.  As I see it, CitizenRe offers people a chance to get rewarded based solely on performance.  I conduct a weekly meeting, a national phone call, sit in on a leadership call that has NOTHING to do with CitizenRe, but rather is to help build our personal achievement standards, I train, I support, I coach, I help until I can’t stay awake any longer and then I help some more.  My reward for all this will be that I can say I had a dynamic impact on our society and that I contributed to leaving a legacy for my family to be proud of.

Man, I get more and more fired up with every sentence.  I am sure some of you will find areas in my post to argue.  That’s okay.  I welcome the banter.  Please feel free to respond as you see fit and thanks for reading this far.

Dr  Richard,

 Excellent commentary on the ABS market and why it matters to this debate - especially poignant 30 days ago.  Rob Styler is quite inacurate when he talks about problems in the "stock market."  The stock market problems were (and are) the public face of the implosion of structured credit.

I left the MBS market earlier this year and have marveled at how quickly it unraveled and the extent to which spreads widened across all products.  Although things have normalized a bit, you are on point in noting these developments will significantly impact CitizenRe's proposed financing endeavors.

 My question for you is this:  Do you find the business model to be fundamentally flawed or is your concern specific to the management team of CitizenRe?  It appears from your initial post that you have first hand experience with these folks.

My expertise is the finance side of the securitization and managing of cashflow producing assets rather than the solar industry, but I have to say I do see how the two could work very well together.  I am not sure securitization is the best source of financing for this type of endeavor (for many of the reasons you cite) but would appreciate your comments on the subject.

If you prefer to contact me directly rather than bore people here with our discussion of the nuances of structured finance you can get me at schnageler@yahoo.com.

 I appreciate your response

- Andrew a 

Andrew, thanks for a civil response.  I don't have much time right now but you will be very interested to watchthe following video.  Click on the link and find the video on the right side  entitled, " RSI Silicon wins Ignite Clean Energy Award".  RSI has an interesting solution to the silicon problem and if you listen closely at the end of the video he talks a bout CitizenRe.  It's a must see for the nay-sayers

This reminds me a lot of what was done with David Lee and his magical power generators that are supposed to be 500% efficient: MLM , the scientists are all wrong, PhDs or other naysayers are biased eggheads, conspiracy by those that stand to lose, many appeals to emotion, etc.  Yet NO delivery of the goods, ever.  The sheer elaborateness of such business schemes is usually a surefire ringer for fraud - smoke and mirrors.  Don't be surprised if some people end up in jail.

For those considering joining up in any fashion, please be extremely careful.  I've had friends get involved in seemingly legitimate MLM businesses and were questioned by the SEC about the same time the founders escaped to Mexico with millions. 

Wow check out this news clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yNcZShPMTc

Looks like Citizenre is not a house of cards after all...

10,000 Tons of silicon... Thanks alot of silicon!

PS: To Laura above who said that a large factory cant be built in under 2 years and without publicity. Your just wrong, Im an Architect and I know for a fact that large structures can be built very fast and under the radar, have you ever heard of the term "private bid". Im also assuming that the factory will be a run of the mill pre-fabricated metal building which can be erected very quickly.

I believe the enthusiasm comes from chasing money.  The saving the world part is a rationalization.  David Lee, exactly.  What a bunch of gobbledygook.  It’s always the same.  The skeptics bring facts and well reasoned arguments.  The dupes bring emotion, vague ideas and rationalizations.  This is damaging because the reputation of the industry gets bruised and good will evaporates.  For my part, I quit chasing a dream and went to school;  now I install ground source heat pumps.  We will get alternative energy on a national scale when we demand it from our government.  I’m no financial or business expert and I don’t pretend to be.  Just the school of hard knocks.  I suspect this is a scam and I stand by my assessment. 

Well I was just at "West Coast Green Bldg. Expo" last week in San Francisco, and discovered there's another company already renting & installing solar power systems, based in San Francisco. The big difference between Sun Run and Citizenre is that Sun Run is already installing systems all over Northern California, and Citizenre is still making promises and excuses for delays.

If you are in Northern Cal, check out  www.sunrunhome.com

Could there be a connetion between BP Solar's Frederick plant expansion and citizenre?  Please!  BP is losing market share year after year and they finally wiped some of the oil out of their eyes to see it. 

I feel so sorry for all of these cr people who are wasting so much money on Google AdWords and other online ads.  You've been had!

What about this idea? Have a mortgage company that specializes in eco-loans. Call it Carbon Free Loans, Inc. or something. The investment (probably $50,000 to $100,000 depending on the house) would be rolled into a new mortgage at 5% or one percent below the borrower's qualifications, whichever is lower. The catch? The house would have to be a net energy producer of both electricity and gas, be sewage free (via composting toilets and greywater systems), and produce less than X amount of garbage (e.g. 64 gallons) a month. Also, the new monthly mortgage would absolutely have to represent no more than 29% of the borrower's gross income. The Berkeley idea sounds OK, but unless I'm misunderstanding it, you still pay extra for going green, essentially punishing the customer for going green. I'm philisophically against that. Besides, the industry won't take off until the "penalty" goes away.